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Old 02-10-04, 03:19 PM   #16 (permalink)
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Projects Manager, Canada

WSPA

World Society for the Protection of Animals

90 Eglinton Ave. East, Suite 960, Toronto, ON M4P 2Y3 CANADA



Tel: (416) 369-0044
Fax: (416) 369-0147
e-mail: laidlaw@wspa.ca
Internet: http://www.wspa.ca

Its in the top post ......
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Old 02-10-04, 03:20 PM   #17 (permalink)
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I would have to agree with Jeff, in that i agree with 95% of that article and can definately see where his view is comming from in his reply to your email.

Now if anyone here (with a good sense of husbandry and all around knowledge concerning reptiles) has ever worked in a pet store...KNOWS how many people come in daily who know absolutely nothing about reptiles but either already keep reptiles or plan to buy one or more without asking enough questions to qualify them as a "good keeper".


Now, within the past couple of months while working at Reptile Headquaters. i have witnessed the following.

1. Box turtles being kept in aquariums with mostly water up to a foot deep in one end of the tank wondering why the shell is soft.

2. multiple WC iguanas with being keptin less then adequate conditions with tails bitten off resulting in secondary infections.

3. The ever so popular burms being purchased and at 6 months being kept in a 36" inch tank...now to most, you would think this size of tank would be fairly cramped for a 6 month old burm. However, by the description of the owner, this burm was no larger then a neonate. so either it is severely underfed. or it is not 6 months of age.
either way, they did not have a clue of the size potential or care requirements.

4. ball pythons the size of a well started 6 month old , but 3 years of age...

5. 18+ inch bearded dragon kept in the smallest tank possible. without a place to retreat from its overhead heat lamp. with a burn on its back. the father brought it in as the daughter had went to college and he had no clue what to do with it.
we gladly took it. Re established it. and found it a good home.

Now all of these animals were purchased from pet shops around the GTA. There was never any reason for me to believe that the store gave them GOOD information on how to keep them properly, nor was there any indication that the owner did much to educate themselves.
And these are the two groups that FUEL this industry. Pet shops and there inexperienced buyers.

I obviously have no statistics to back up this claim, but i think many can agree that as far as amounts of transactions go....there are FAR more pet shop transactions then within our community or any other online community.
Sure we spend the big bucks for overpriced morphs, but its less often and outweighed by the amount of transactions that the bigger store chains recieve on a busy saturday and sunday afternoon.

We have to be pretty naive to think that the majority of reptile owners in Canada are on this site. It would be nice if it was the truth, but its not. And the scary thing is, regardless of whether WSPA has actually surveyed people to back up these claims, if they did indeed have to, to get laws put in place....im afraid that they might just come up with the percentages they need.

The WC problem is a big one for them. Infact its a big problem for all of us.
And a great weight falls on the shoulders of the thousands of pet shops around the globe. But not exclusively. There are plenty BIG breeders out there importing normal balls, bloods, etc... to fill customer needs, fill up webspace if they had a bad year, or just to be able to have normals available while they concentrate on the higher end stuff as far as captive breeding goes....
then you have your short-lived importer who moves a million wc balls quickly, makes there money, and gets out.
Then theres us, i am guilty of bying a known WC in the past. And im sure there are others.

So there is not any one group to blame.
And i can see where WSPA is comming from. I dont neccessarily agree with the end result they are trying to attain, but they do have some points that could definately be proven down the road.

The thing i dont like is that many of these organizations fail to comprehend or perhaps intentionally ignore all the positive points Nett has mentioned like the advances in husbandry and knowledge of the requirements for these animals.
This is where it REAALLY bothers me and i have a hard time comming up with ideas of how to defend our hobby against there claims.

I can tell you one thing ive been noticing lately.... We dont really have a power house to compete with WSPA...we have no organization.
What i see is a very large community of people sub divided into there own little reptile clubs/cliques across the country, some areas without any reptile clubs, some clubs having beef with others, etc..

Everyones doin there OWN thing.... instead of everyone doing ONE thing. Which should be educatiing anyone and everyone, working towards one common goal, which should be education and awareness....

Has Anyone ever told there friends (non-herpers) that they're apart of a "reptile club" and got a weird look?.... perhaps a chuckle.... with images of a bunch of 4-eyed pre-pubescent teens standing around looking at there snakes scales with magnifying glasses....

the point im trying to make is that we have no voice, we are unknown. many people dont even know reptile keeping exists in communities... and its about time we establish reptile-regional groups under one name with one goal...This way we can take our own poles... come up with our own facts...with limitless boundaries...

Im just not sure we have what it takes...

Sorry about the long post and perhaps differing views..but thats what makes these boards useful.

gvg
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Old 02-10-04, 03:22 PM   #18 (permalink)
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as for all the "we are only in canada crap, then why is this on their website???

QUOTE:
Question #2:
What are WSPA's aims?


WSPA aims to promote the protection of animals, to prevent cruelty to animals, and to relieve animal suffering in every part of the world.

WSPA also aims to promote humane education programmes to encourage respect for animals and responsible stewardship, and the establishment of laws and enforcement structures that will provide adequate legal protection for animals.

Everypart of the world my a$$... if that were true then he wouldn't blow off the questions about the US etc...
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Old 02-10-04, 03:30 PM   #19 (permalink)
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I believe the reason why he was blowing off the US in his emails is that they have there own division by my knowledge, So he is only speaking on behalf of Canada's situation.
Dont think for a second that the US WSPA ...ISN"T working on this. ITs just a lot more complicated taking away there snakes, because of there laws and power in numbers.

But it makes perfect sense to attack canada if you think about it.
were smaller and weaker...in every aspect concerning the reptile industry. Take us over and it will be alot easier to take them over....Its the power of "PRECEDENT"
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Old 02-10-04, 03:34 PM   #20 (permalink)
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Quote:
the point im trying to make is that we have no voice, we are unknown. many people dont even know reptile keeping exists in communities... and its about time we establish reptile-regional groups under one name with one goal...This way we can take our own poles... come up with our own facts...with limitless boundaries...
I would have to agree ......We dont have one voice and we need one, it would seem, if we have any hope in dealing with these so called animal rights groups.......I have been looking into starting a Canadain Breeders Association for awhile now ........I guess I better really start putting the pieces together.......


Kinda wonder what they will do with all the herps in Canada if they succeed??????
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Old 02-10-04, 03:36 PM   #21 (permalink)
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It would be nice to say i am a member of........



WORRK - World Organization for Rights of Reptile Keepers???

In other words worrrrrrrrk our A$$ off to keep our reptiles ...anyone?
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Old 02-10-04, 03:37 PM   #22 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by Grant vg
I believe the reason why he was blowing off the US in his emails is that they have there own division by my knowledge, So he is only speaking on behalf of Canada's situation.
Dont think for a second that the US WSPA ...ISN"T working on this. ITs just a lot more complicated taking away there snakes, because of there laws and power in numbers.

But it makes perfect sense to attack canada if you think about it.
were smaller and weaker...in every aspect concerning the reptile industry. Take us over and it will be alot easier to take them over....Its the power of "PRECEDENT"
I know ......... Go after us 1st .......Set the precedent here .....Then go after the big fish ........ That is why we need to voice our points as one voice in a professional manner ...... I really think it all starts with us ....... And hopefully it will end here as well .....If we do it right ......
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Old 02-10-04, 03:37 PM   #23 (permalink)
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Old 02-10-04, 03:39 PM   #24 (permalink)
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If WSPA was smart, they'd embrace the herp communities and work with them to stomp out WC specimens. With the exception of the rarer breeds of snakes, there are more than enough CB snakes in Canada to support the market. Besides if they stop WC importx the reptile stock here are somewhat limited, their price remains relatively high, leaving alot of impulse buys at pet stores out of the picture.
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Old 02-10-04, 03:43 PM   #25 (permalink)
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Nett,

The only thing i can see that might backlash is the "breeders" in that name if it was chosen to be Canada's authority.
I say this because it can easily be turned from a Breeder = Captive bred animals lessening the strain on Wild populations.....which is how we view it...

To Breeders = money
Its always good to stay away from anything that can relate back to money concerning any "ethical" issue..... even more so with wildlife....
Is that understandable?
It just crossed my mind after reading it and thinking about it for a minute....

a suggestion nonetheless.....
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Old 02-10-04, 03:47 PM   #26 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by JonD
If WSPA was smart, they'd embrace the herp communities and work with them to stomp out WC specimens. With the exception of the rarer breeds of snakes, there are more than enough CB snakes in Canada to support the market. Besides if they are the reptiles are somewhat limited, their price remains relatively high, leaving alot of impulse buys at pet stores out of the picture.
Unfortunately, they dont agree with keeping reptiles in captivity at all..... Reducing the WC strain still wont fix there problem with our husbandry practices...or should i say, the husbandry of the less informed here in Canada.
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Old 02-10-04, 03:47 PM   #27 (permalink)
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Very disheartening indeed to think these guys are supposed to be on our side. In reguards to the whole meat/skin thing their industry has much more money therefore power than us herpers so they choose to attack us little guys first. I for one would love to see the documented proof of their slanderous claims. Their hearts in the right place, but their heads are stuck up their butts still. I think they should concentrate their efforts on the banning of WCs & more importantly dealing with the exceedingly increasing problems concerning domesticated animals such as Cats & Dogs. Just how many C & D's are put down even on a daily basis, not because they are unhealthy, but just because they are unwanted. I would like to see these #'s referenced againest the claims againest Herpers. These WSPA people seem more content just to wipe out the pet trade in general rather than put the proper time & effort in to regulate it as it should be. No more Pet trade, no more problem, ya that will work NOT! I wonder if Lowell managed to get a Rocket Launcher yet. I know where the crosshairs should be sitting LOL (even though it ain't funny at all, sigh!) Mark
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Old 02-10-04, 03:50 PM   #28 (permalink)
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Grant you are right about organizing. If the community comes together, we in turn get other organizations to join us and it gives us one big voice!! Cheers to the power of assembly!!
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Old 02-10-04, 03:55 PM   #29 (permalink)
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Also,
If you couldn't tell from my previous posts....
Its important not to meet resistence with resistence...
We have to first REALLY think about EVERYTHING WSPA is saying....and acknowledge that some of it MAY be true.
Regardless of whether we would like it to be true or not.
Then, Not work AGAINST it or DENY it, but to FIX it.
By going about things this way, not only does it get them off our backs and make them less likely to throw our attemps back in our face, it ALSO betters the hobby as a WHOLE ....in my opinion.
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Old 02-10-04, 03:56 PM   #30 (permalink)
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What about
crebo- Canadian Reptile, Enthusiast and Breeders Organization
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