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Old 02-09-04, 11:20 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Buying from a US breeder

I was wondering if any Canadians have purchased snakes from a US breeder? What did it entail?
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Old 02-09-04, 11:34 PM   #2 (permalink)
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I found the answer to my question...

This is a quote from Robyn at Pro Exotics...

The problem of getting animals to Canada isn't lack of effort from breeders (or even dealers) it is the paperwork and expense involved.

exporting to Canada is pretty much the same as exporting to, say, Yugoslavia, even though you are "right there". there is a LOT of paperwork involved, all kinds of fees, duties, health reports, and more, as well as a 3 month (or more) wait from filing the paperwork to get approval.

for an order of a thousand dollars or more, it may be worth it for both parties, but for a single animal that may cost less than the paperwork, as well as the multi-month wait, it is simply not worth it, to either party.

the best thing to do is to arrange all the paperwork from your side, and have the animal shipped to a broker house or friend's house on the border, and then take the animal across yourself. in more than 10 years of breeding and selling reptiles, i have had ONE customer go through the trouble to do this for an animal (a single monitor). no one else feels it is worth their time.

there is a real lack of reptiles available in Canada, and a great market there just waiting to be filled. it is not for lack of interest that we can't fill it, but rather cost, time, and expense...
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Old 02-09-04, 11:47 PM   #3 (permalink)
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I for one am glad that its hard for the US to export here (LOL, obviously), but its only hard for certain animals. And those animals are ones that don't have any paperwork. Like Australian animals. I mean, if the country doesn't allow export of its native fauna, then how can the paperwork exist to ship those animals internationally? Right. It doesn't. So very few people have or can get the paperwork for Aussie animals, that most just don't bother.

But Ball Pythons? Boas? Rainbows? etc etc? They are EASY to ship up here. People do it all the time. Why are they easy? Because the countries in which they are from ship HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS of them to the US every year. Therefore, abundant amounts of CITES paperwork is floating around to get the animals legally across the border.

Moral? Aussie animals are next to impossible to buy from the States (except certain people that have legal paperwork). Everything else is fair game, provided they can get the CITES for it. Its not hard, and its not all that time consuming.
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Old 02-10-04, 01:32 AM   #4 (permalink)
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Jeffs comments are correct, but I wish to clarify some of the quoted info in the post above that.
I've been importing and exporting in Canada, for a couple decades...
It's a pain but its possible, and I actually think it's easier now that it used to be.

To start with I disagree that there is a "real lack of reptiles available in Canada"
This might have been the case a mere decade ago, but there isn't much left that isn't up here now, and some has just arrived in the last couple years.
We have Boelens, Angolans, Diamonds, Dumerils, Malagasy's,Olive Pythons, Anthill Pythons, Stimpsoni,...albino boas, albino sandboas,albino rosy boas, most Ball Python morphs, and the list goes on and on...and we have lots of monitors and geckos and pretty much everything else.
Sure we aren't yet producing all of those, but they are here, and Canadians produce more and more herps very year.
And the market while expanding, is hardly what I would call "a great market waiting to be filled"
It's come a long way in the last decade but we are still very small, partially do to the vastness of the geography and the comparitvely small population and correspondingly small herp consumer base. Also moving herps across this great land is costly. In the US the postal service can be used legally to move small herps like geckos.
In Canada, you can't legally mail any live animals , nor can you legally put them on ground couriers, so we have those big c-note charges to air cargo even geckos... and not everyone has an airport handy , and this is limiting trade in our own country.
Most of the larger breeders are forced to export much of what they produce, because there simply isn't a big enough, or easy enough to service, customer base domestically.

In addition to that, a couple minor corrections:
1. there is no duty on wildlife(ie herps) There never has been(GST & PST, yes but not duty)
2. Canada does not require "health permits" for imported herps. This pertains to some European countries but not ours.
3. Canadians cannot do "ALL the paperwork" because the CITES export permits come from the US government not ours, and while it is possible for Canadians to apply for US export permits,it can't be done without some cooperation from the US supplier.
They must provide a breeder statement and the permit must go to a US address.
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Old 02-10-04, 02:36 AM   #5 (permalink)
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Quote:

To start with I disagree that there is a "real lack of reptiles available in Canada"

This might have been the case a mere decade ago, but there isn't much left that isn't up here now, and some has just arrived in the last couple years.
We have Boelens, Angolans, Diamonds, Dumerils, Malagasy's,Olive Pythons, Anthill Pythons, Stimpsoni,...albino boas, albino sandboas,albino rosy boas, most Ball Python morphs, and the list goes on and on...and we have lots of monitors and geckos and pretty much everything else.
Sure we aren't yet producing all of those, but they are here, and Canadians produce more and more herps very year.
And the market while expanding, is hardly what I would call "a great market waiting to be filled"

That's funny you say that Roy, because just a couple days ago, Don P. and I were talking about how many great breeders there were in Canada, yet how lame and slow and infantile and small etc etc etc he market was!! Its so true. Tons of wicked snakes are produced here every year, yet most of the good stuff, I'd say, goes either overseas, back to the US, or is kept. At least in my opinion. I mean, we were commenting on "what if we produced, say a bumblebee, or a snow (boa OR ball)"? "Where would we sell it?" LOL! Indeed. Who in CANADA would actually buy one? I mean, the people that actually want and will fork over the cash for hese things ALREADY have them, or have plans to get them. And that's where the Canadian market is just behind the times. Lots of great breeders, but no where to sell the animals.

Thank god for international shipping!!

I mean, I even remember Roy saying that he would export BRB babies back in the day. If it were easier to sell them here, I assume that he would, and not go through the hassle of shipping them down south.

Don't get me wrong, I love my country, but in the herp bizzz, we are kind of bringing up the rear, so to speak.
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Old 02-10-04, 09:54 PM   #6 (permalink)
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I looked into importing animals last year... I found it was easier to import animals from china into canada then it was to bring something up from the usa.

one exception to this is turtles and tortoises, they appear to be difficult to import out right from anywhere. i think you can import them as food but not for resale as pets.
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Old 02-11-04, 01:19 PM   #7 (permalink)
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Is there any snakes worth bringing up to Canada from the states. I mean ones that are already present here, it seems that the sites I have been on have comparable prices to Canada, once you factor the exchange. The reason is, I was planning on getting one or two snakes from the states and was just wondering what is actually worth getting.
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Old 02-11-04, 06:21 PM   #8 (permalink)
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I would say, that unless you want a Bumblebee, L. Platty (Corey will have Lessers fairly soon probably), Snow, Clown (Mark should be getting close), etc etc, or maybe a Snow or Sunglow or Motley Boa, there is nothing you couldn't just get here.

Keep in mind, those are all $20K, 30k, or even $60K PLUS snakes.
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Old 02-11-04, 06:30 PM   #9 (permalink)
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Worth is a relative term. For instance. some snakes that aren't worth much money are difficult to find up here (i'm still looking for a prarie king). It might be worth it to me as a collector in the long term to bring one up, but it's going to cost me more to bring it here then the snake it's self.
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Old 02-11-04, 06:45 PM   #10 (permalink)
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I was looking into purchasing a gecko from a US breeder and found out that a lot of them wouldn't even bother to. Many said the "red tape" was a killer. Also the cost just to get it into Canada would be double the lizard cost, so I tried to find an easier and more cost effective way. I decided to try and get the gecko delivered to Buffalo and then I would drive down there and pick it up. I knew I still would have to get some papers to be able to bring it across, so I looked into those. Then someone mentioned that you can claim it as a pet, and you don't need the papers. So I looked into it and all they asked was for you to pay the GST and PST. (now I don't know if this is for sure true, but I will know by tomorrow, and so I'll post it tomorrow if it is true) I don't know what reptiles and animals this applies to, but they said that it was okay for this gecko. Anyways I'm still trying to get it, but I'm still researching on how to get it in, but my idea is that claiming it as a pet would be the best idea.
Here is a link about shipping to Canada.
http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/foru...threadid=28854
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Old 02-11-04, 07:09 PM   #11 (permalink)
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I disagree, Jeff. There are a TON of snakes in the US that are just not available here, and not just the high end ones either. Even some of the locality boas (B.c.longicauda, B.c.melanogaster) cannot be found here, that I know of. I'm going to be doing an import this year sometime too, because in some cases, the specimens in the US are worth paying the extra money for. Have you seen NERD's Guyanan Redtails??? HOLY FRICKEN FRACK! (Hope you don't mind me ripping of your phrase there Jeff, hehehe.)

So as to whether it's "worth" it, you have to decide that. For me, getting rare specimens, or the BEST specimens is worth paying the money for.
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Old 02-11-04, 07:24 PM   #12 (permalink)
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Unfortunately for me. My love is the tri colors. I can't see how i can ever sell as many milk snakes as what i will produce in the comming years. It would be counter productive to sell them at lower prices and flood what market there is. I think it will be impossible not to export to the USA. I'll cross that bridge when i come to it.

I have also imported from the USA. Like Jeff and Uncle Roy said above...unless you are purchasing a rare, expensive, or a large number of animals, it is not worth it. Now if i could only aheed to those rules myself.

Seriously though, your best bet. If you are looking for a single animal from the USA...speak to the breeders at one of the reptile shows and someone there may be able to help you out. It's always nice to find someone that is placing an order and will let you split on the shiping.

Another option is to combine an order with others. Be very careful though, you know someone always backs out.
If you are close to the border and an American airport that can have animals shipped to it, Ship it to that airport and go pick it up yourself. The border crossing may cause a few snags but it also may not. Its a risk but it will save you money on shipping.
Make sure you know all the rules and regulations of the state and province you will be crossing at.

Many US breeders do not like to ship to Canada because they have not done it before and do not wish to see if it will be feesible. Most of the larger breeders and brokers will without a blink.

I personally feel that buying anything off the internet is risky but on the other hand, i feel that herp breeders are mostly genuine. Maybe thats the trustful Newfie coming outta me.

Hope this helps.

Mathaldo: When and if you decide to have something shipped from the states. There are lots of ways to make sure you are makng the right decision. This was definately a good start.

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Old 02-11-04, 07:28 PM   #13 (permalink)
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Even some of the locality boas (B.c.longicauda, B.c.melanogaster)
If I was going locality, I would be shopping at certain places in the UK. They are easier to te get them from and have equal selection.
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Old 02-11-04, 08:13 PM   #14 (permalink)
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Originally posted by mathaldo
Then someone mentioned that you can claim it as a pet, and you don't need the papers. So I looked into it and all they asked was for you to pay the GST and PST. (now I don't know if this is for sure true, but I will know by tomorrow, and so I'll post it tomorrow if it is true)


I checked into this last year. My question was phrased to ask if I could buy a non-CITES listed, 'not controlled in any way species' non-dangerous nor poisonous pet in the U.S. and bring it back with me as a personal pet. The answer was that I could bring it back without a special permit, but I'd still have to pay GST and PST. A personal pet is apparently one that you had with you when you left Canada. Returning with one you bought in the U.S. is still considered a purchase (though it's a live animal and destined to be your pet) and you would then need to declare it and pay the applicable taxes.
To prove you had the animal when you left the country, you'd need to have a Certificate of Ownership, which apparently is good for unlimited travel across the border for 3 years (unless the time frame has been changed now due to increased border security). There's also a restriction on selling it after you get it into the country unless you have a permit (the name of that escapes me right now) allowing you to import for re-sale.
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Old 02-11-04, 08:20 PM   #15 (permalink)
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Lisa there were lots of calligasters including albinos up here over 10 years ago. I had a couple and they were brought in from California.
Sometimes things just disappear because Canadians aren't interested and can't or don't breed them.
I used to breed lots of Transpecos ratsnakes. They've all but disappeared now. I imported some more last year... Things sometimes come and go.

The big stumbling block now for Americans is they need an import/export license, plus a USF&W inspeciton just to get international shipments on a plane. This is creating even more resistance.
The license is 50US per year, and the inspection is 55 to 75 for CITES per shipment.
This license thing is new, in the last several years. I've heard through the grapevine that an American or two have been charged for attempting to ship into Canada without doing it correctly.
Word of that type of thing spreads fast.

Canadians can obtain the USF&W import/export license, and make the transaction themselves but only if they live near a border port. Inspections must always be done on US soil.
Some of us in Ontario are doing this. American breeders can ship to Buffalo and it can be legally picked up there providing
1. You are in possesion of an import/export license
2. You have an exemption from designated port permit(25 per year to use border ports)
3. You make an appointment to meet USF&W for the inspection on the US side. This should be done 3 days in advance, so they can dispatch and officer
4. If the shipment contains CITES species(all boids and monitors), that permit better be with the shipment, or you're going home without them. It takes a few MONTHS to get CITES and The American supplier must have legal animals.
Getting CITES is really the first step, for anyone interested in importing BOIDS or MONITORS or IGUANAS or DAY GECKOS, DART FROGS & Torts.

Transacting non CITES shipments is much easier, and requires less work, but step 1 to 3 is still required.

And Brian, I was the largest tricolor and greybanded king breeder in Canada back in the 80's and 90's.
I shipped it all to the US until the bottom fell out of that market and they refused to take it.
Not to sound negative, but you wont be selling many tris to Americans unless you plan to give them away. Everything we have came from them to start with.
Other than possibly Honduran morphs, there is no American market for Canadian tricolors. Remember they will have to pay an inspection to receive them, plus the shipping. They also need a license now to receive international shipments. In some cases it's being waived, but there are now reports of Canadian shipments being returned because the recipient didn't have the required import license.

The only way to get around that problem is as I outlined above. You need to get them into the US legally then distribute them.
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