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Old 01-30-04, 06:10 PM   #106 (permalink)
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No it is not the only way, but it is the way snakes live under, and have evolved under for ages.
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Old 01-30-04, 06:20 PM   #107 (permalink)
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Ok, I've read this ENTIRE thread and have enjoyed it thoroughly. I will not throw in my two cents regarding the topic. What I will say however, is that it is unfortunate that a few people, who for the most part fancy themselves as quite articulate and intelligent can sink to such a childish level as to use vulgarity and personal attacks to get a point across. For you I am embarrassed and somewhat disappointed, as you clearly are not. Most people who responded to this thread were doing so to pass on personal experience. Heresay, vulgarity and personal attacks don't belong here. MOST of us are above that. If you're going to be ignorant, rude, condescending or vulgar, maybe you should re-access the amount of respect and credibility you think you deserve.
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Old 01-30-04, 08:58 PM   #108 (permalink)
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Well said Mykee (as usual)!

I'm not telling you that you are wrong either Ken, I'm just asking that with your method (and "lots" of other "big" breeders) how you're going to go about accomplishing specific life events without a gradient. and I have yet to hear you answer that. So I assume that it can't be done with your method. And if it can't be done with your method, I would them deem that method to be inferior (by default). Wouldnt' you agree? All I want to know is how you're going to gestate gravid or soon-to-be gravid pythons and boas with no heat gradient. That is a completely natural life event that happens with pretty much 95% of my adult stock. Without a heat gradient, I'd be surprised to see more than slugs, preemies, and stills.

But you seem to know your method pretty well and having your "ear to the ground" on the non-gradient scene, I figure it would be a cinch for you to tell me how to do it. You see I am VERY interested to know. If you can save me electricity, thus decreasing my overhead, then that's going to help me. I don't care if you don't have gravid pythons or boas. All I care about is how you're going to accomplish or how the "big breeders" you say can accomplish, gestating snakes and breeding them with no gradient. I find it very intriguing is all.


That's all I want to know.

Well, that AND why isn't every single snake that has access to 84F in the wild at that tempreature 24/7. I mean if its the ideal temp., and they have access to it 24 hours a day, why do they NOT always choose to be at that temp? That doesn't make sense. And while we're at it, why the arbitrary value of 84F? Why not 86F? Why not 83F? What's SO magical about 84F?

Its funny because you always call people arrogant or elitists when they don't agree with your crazymethods, yet you seem to think you can tell an animal that has evolved for thousands of years to exploit different temperature ranges to just be at one pre-determined magical temperature. THAT is way more arrogant than someone explaing their proven methods of husbandry.

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However, more and more people are coming forth and saying that they also either have, or know many huge scale breeders who have, done the same. When is it going to be enough proof for you?
Ummm..yeah, they're coming out of the woodwork so fast my head is spinning! Huh? Grant VG is the only one who said anything remotely close to that since you posted, so I don't see all these breeders coming forth. It would be nice if they did. Because then maybe we could get some detailed insight into how it works, the pros/cons, the ins and outs, etc etc. You know, the TANGIBLE stuff. Not just rhetoric and jibber-jabber.

Is any of this even worth arguing anymore? I mean, on the one hand, I don't want newbees thinking they can just stick a 100W bulb in a 5-foot high cage and stick a baby boa in it, and think everything is hunky-dory just because the cage is 84F. But on the other hand, not much more is being learned by anyone here, and its pretty much the same stuff being bantered around, without the questions actually being answered. I don't know. I just wish it was more of an open discussion without the slander and profanity. That might have just scared a few people off who would have otherwise posted and contributed.

Cheers,

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Old 01-30-04, 09:15 PM   #109 (permalink)
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Hey Jeff,

I think Ken was trying to say that he keeps all of his non breeding stock (babies and sub-adults) in a heated room with no gradient. His cycling and gestating adults would go in another room and have cages that have a heat gradient to allow thermoregulation.

I guess if it works, good on him but I too am weary of the magical 84F. Like I said before let the snake decide or call the Pet Psychic

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Old 01-30-04, 09:21 PM   #110 (permalink)
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Totally Ron. The thing is, breeding and gestating is but ONE life event that requires different temperatures than 84F. I know, I've temp gunned all the ranges and all the events. I have Ball Pythons that will go to 94-96F after a big meal. How would 84F help them then? Same with my Rainbows. They're boas. I feed them HUGE meals sometimes, and they will consistantly cruise over to the 92F spot. Yet, before follicular development, I've found them to seek out 77-81F. How the heck can I accomplish any of this in a room that's 84F? I can't. And to me, just keeping a few boas alive that could basically live in any condition thrown at them isn't enough. I want recruitment, and I want fast, healthy growth with no snags. And the only way I can accomplish that is.....
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Old 01-30-04, 11:13 PM   #111 (permalink)
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I just read this thread, I see it has really racked up the posts.

Jeff, again, you are talking about cycling for breeding.

Yes, I would suggest people trying to breed boas and pythons fluctuate the temperatures and use some gradient and night time drops for most of the processes you’ve mentioned (we’ve never tried it any other way). That isn’t really the topic of discussion though, is it.

Having said that, I do know a few people (In Canada) that successfully breed boas and pythons with no gradients, and I suspect they aren’t the people Ken is thinking about either. I’ve certainly grown some boas and pythons very well with no gradient, just by keeping them nice and warm and humid.

I have also bred numerous colubrids without providing a gradient, and know many others who have done the same, repeatedly.

My gut feeling says that a gradient is likely better for the reptile for food digestion etc, but I have also seen enough colubrid rooms with no gradient for the individual enclosures – produce large numbers of babies, year after year. Those people must be too busy breeding and feeding babies to come to Internet forums, because none of the ones I am thinking of are on here.

But, Jeff, from what I have seen, you like to defend your beliefs greatly – which is good, you believe in them. But, you have to admit, that people have been breeding reptiles for 25 years, and so many do it differently than you or I do.

Look how much information has been found out about monitor breeding, light cycles and stuff like that. There are many methods that will produce babies – there is not only one way to do things, and an even better way could always be around the corner that we haven’t thought about yet.

I also know a few people who no longer give gravid boas and pythons much of a gradient, or any under belly heat. That, in itself, is a neat idea to think about. Would you want your incubator to spike to 95 F for prolonged periods of time? What about a gravid snake (boa or ball) being able to sit on a heat pad that makes the surface temperature of their bellies go over 95 F.

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Old 01-31-04, 05:43 AM   #112 (permalink)
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Quote:
Jeff, again, you are talking about cycling for breeding.
Actually, I JUST said this in the above post:


Quote:
I have Ball Pythons that will go to 94-96F after a big meal. How would 84F help them then? Same with my Rainbows. They're boas. I feed them HUGE meals sometimes, and they will consistantly cruise over to the 92F spot.
I'm not sure how you breed your animals, but feeding them huge rats isn't part of cycling process. I wasn't referring to cycling at all. My point was, and I thought it was clear, was that breeding and cycling is but ONE life event that requires different temperatures other than 84F. So then I went and provided 3 more. I'm not sure how that can get confused?
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Old 01-31-04, 06:14 AM   #113 (permalink)
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But, Jeff, from what I have seen, you like to defend your beliefs greatly – which is good, you believe in them. But, you have to admit, that people have been breeding reptiles for 25 years, and so many do it differently than you or I do.
I would much rather defend my beliefs greatly than to have no beliefs or experiences at all. But I didn't really defend anything vehimently here. I didn't swear, yell, insult, etc etc, so I wouldn't say I defended more greatly than other involved. If anything, I held back.

Yes, people do it differently, and as well they should (different climates, different ambient room temps, different cities, etc etc), but the mechanisms and thoughts behind the processes are the same. The animals don't change. They have specific requirements and that's it. There are many ways to acheive this, but it must be acheived if success is desired. And if certain temperatures are required to complete life events are different than 84F, then its not hard to see that........... well, you get the idea.

I gotta bail on this thread though, sorry guys. Nothing new is coming up or being discussed, only some people saying "well some breeders do it" and others saying "who are these secret breeders and/or just because you breed them doesn't mean that its resulting in healthy animals" etc etc. Its just not helping anyone at this point. You can tell me that you know a hundred...no a MILLION breeders that just use ambient 84F and that's fine. Each successive time you tell me does not add to the affect. You know, zero times zero is STILL zero. And I can say that a million breeders DO give gradients, and that's likely to not have an effect on you guys either. Doesn't matter. You keeping your animals at 84F has no affect on MY breeding success or failure. I am in control of that (thank god). I just worry about animals kept in a suspect way due to misguided advice given or laziness. But I can't bend over backwards trying to explain why that is. All I know is that I at least tried to give your animals a better lifestyle, that is all.

All I know (for sake of arguement) is that snakes ACTIVELY CHOOSE different temperatures in the wild and in captivity ALL the time. Therefore, it would behoove us to allow them to do just that. If you don't, in my opinion, you are not giving that animal the best care possible. And I'd hate to think of people doing that.
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Old 01-31-04, 07:41 AM   #114 (permalink)
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All I know (for sake of arguement) is that snakes ACTIVELY CHOOSE different temperatures in the wild and in captivity ALL the time. Therefore, it would behoove us to allow them to do just that. If you don't, in my opinion, you are not giving that animal the best care possible. And I'd hate to think of people doing that.
I am out of it now too. But I just wanted to mention, before I leave, that THAT is exactly what I have been trying to say the whole time. Also, that breeding something or not have it die does not, in the least bit, attest to its health, well-being or anything else of the sort. My last analogy summed it all up I think, the bearded dragon one.
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Old 01-31-04, 08:42 AM   #115 (permalink)
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Just wanted to add a quick HAPPY BIRTHDAY INVITICUS .
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Old 01-31-04, 11:29 AM   #116 (permalink)
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Sorry, some things I need to clear up before I also put this thread on the ignore list.

Gino - LOL, thanks.. sure, butter me up with niceities so I don't flip out again, hehehehe

On that note, I do apologize to you (publicly) for flying off the handle. I'm a very defensive person, and when I feel I'm being accused of being a liar or a bad keeper, well... my eyes turn red, horns sprout out, and I start sounding like Linda Blair in the Exorcist.

That said:

1) I don't keep ball pythons OR rainbow boas in the heated room, Jeff. I know better. However, my boa constrictors digest and poop on exactly the same schedule as when I had them on a gradient, and they NEVER used the cool side, which was around 78 degrees, so don't tell me it was too cool.

2) I never said I keep them at exactly 84F. Someone else put that word in my mouth. I said the daytime temp ranges from 80 to 84. Meaning 84 is the highest temperature I've ever recorded in here. Most of the time it stays around 82.

3) I'm still needing to re-emphasize, apparently, that I do not have adults of any kind in the heated room. It is mostly baby corns, and boa constrictos, which all do QUITE well at a constant warm temperature. Once they reach a year or two old (depending on species), they come out of the rubbermaids and into custom enclosures.

So, we agree to disagree. Now I'd like to move on to much more interesting things.
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Old 01-31-04, 04:04 PM   #117 (permalink)
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Sorry to post again, but you know what's funniest of all Ken? When my baby racks run out of space, all the Rainbows come out and are stacked in the reptile room up high atan ambient of 83F.

Heh heh........
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