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Old 01-30-04, 02:32 PM   #91 (permalink)
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Hey Jeff,

I don't think Ken's changed his story- didn't he say at the start that he didn't have breeding pythons without additional heat sources? I can't remember for sure at this point, and I'm not planning on going back to check:-)

Now back to the Calci-Sand issue- Dark Angel, I'm well aware that Tums are made from calcium carbonate (here's the ingredients list: Active Ingredients: per tablet: Calcium Carbonate USP (500mg) Inactive Ingredients: Sucrose, Calcium Carbonate, Corn Starch, Talc, Mineral Oil, Natural Flavors, Sodium Polyphosphate). And yes, acid working on calcium carbonate gets neutralized. Eventually, the entire Tums (or calci-sand) is dissolved. This, by the way, is a digestive process! Your stomach produces more acid- it isn't all gone!

I just tried mixing a small quantity of calci-sand with some hydrochloric water, and a little water. It all seemed to dissolve nicely. Boy, that is even better than the vinegar and baking soda of my childhood! I can only surmise, Gino, that you didn't have enough acid to dissolve it all, or if you didn't have any additional water present, then stuff you were seeing is some calcium chloride salt residue (Chemistry 101- Acid + Base gives you Water plus Salt). In the gut, this calcium chloride salt would be dissolved in water.

Now I didn't mean to imply that some calcium carbonate can't be passed- if the throughput time of the gut is quick enough and the quantity of calcium carbonate large enough, then some will be moved beyond the stomach. Sure, impaction is still possible, but the risk is vastly reduced compared to quartz sand, 100% of which will pass through the stomach. Passing a little sand is hardly an indication of a problem.

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Old 01-30-04, 02:37 PM   #92 (permalink)
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Jeff H: ok some of it dissolved, but tell that to my 1 year AFT whose poop was FULL of it. Anyway, the bottom line (for me anyway) is I have seen it in the poop (and not a little, plus the fact it took him 4 days to actually 'go') and like you said Jeff, some may pas right past the stomach, therefore maybe a chance of impaction.. but for me no risk is a better choice, and I will choose to put the saftey and welfare of my animals before the aesthetic aspect of it... but maybe that is just me.
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Old 01-30-04, 03:08 PM   #93 (permalink)
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That is the problem Ken you are taking somthing away, that they should have the choice of. They know better than we do and if they want to cool down then they have that option. After all this is what they do in the wild. And I second what Jeff F said that I hope no newbies come into the hobby and fallow your foot steps. I see all my animals use bothends and it comforts me that they have a choice and its not my way or the highway as you have choicen for your animals. I could go on forever but I don't think you will change.
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Old 01-30-04, 03:21 PM   #94 (permalink)
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joshm: he hasn't chosen 'my way or the highway' did you read his post? Snakes go to cooler sides and warmer hides to MAINTAIN a CORE temperature. namely between 80-84 degrees. because his ENTIRE room is that temperature, they don't have to try to maintain anything, the core temp that they look for is already what they have. when they go to the hot side, they may get up to 90 degrees, so they go to the cool side but maybe they stay too long and get to 80 degrees, so back to the warm hide. etc etc. Ken is giving them the temp they are trying to achieve.

did you even read what he said?
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Old 01-30-04, 03:31 PM   #95 (permalink)
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... or what others have posted for that matter? Are you now calling Grant a liar too? He has spoken with US breeders that keep their young through sub-adults at a common core temperature, with success. So it seems that my method is not all that unpopular, even among large scale breeders after all.
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Old 01-30-04, 03:36 PM   #96 (permalink)
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Dark Angel- Regardless of whats right or wrong, not all snakes are trying to achieve a certain tempurature all the time, and if they were, that temp certaintly isn't the same for each species. They want certain temps for doing certain things....that's something both sides are agreeing on.

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Old 01-30-04, 03:37 PM   #97 (permalink)
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Tell me what happens to the animals on the lower parts of the room as heat rises and then the top the heat sits, the heat in a room will not disapear and so how do you control it for all. You can't tell me that the room always stays at 84, not without proper fans and such. So tell me how do they benifit from this.
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Old 01-30-04, 03:41 PM   #98 (permalink)
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Your right on the money Marisa, I guess thats why they invented heat tape and the such. To give whats best for the animals which is a temp grad. I guess that idea is crap eh.
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Old 01-30-04, 03:55 PM   #99 (permalink)
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Josh - The floor of the room differs from the top of the room by 1 degree. That's it. And yes, this is the readout from my digital thermometers which I have placed all over the room to ensure I was getting the temps where I wanted them. I'm surprised that you honestly think I wouldn't have checked this.
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Old 01-30-04, 03:58 PM   #100 (permalink)
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John- Frankly you are turning this from what recovered into a good debate into stupidness. Have you ignored my past posts? I USE HEATING GRADIENTS! So why would you say to me:

"invented heat tape and the such. To give whats best for the animals which is a temp grad. I guess that idea is crap eh."

Yeah that was pointless. Try and get me to believe in something I already pratice. HAHAHA

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Old 01-30-04, 04:00 PM   #101 (permalink)
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Quote:
Your right on the money Marisa, I guess thats why they invented heat tape and the such. To give whats best for the animals which is a temp grad. I guess that idea is crap eh.
And, once again Josh, I never once said, implied, or even hinted at a gradient being a bad idea, so please just grow up, and while you're at it, learn the difference between your and you're. I learned it in grade 2.

See, that was kind of a cheap shot, wasn't it? Now you see how you are looking with silly comments like the one quoted above.

This is the difference with our standpoints - I'm not telling you that you are wrong, because you're not. And if I did feel that you were wrong, I would take the responsibility of proving it to you... something that neither you, nor anyone else here, has done thus far. However, more and more people are coming forth and saying that they also either have, or know many huge scale breeders who have, done the same. When is it going to be enough proof for you?
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Old 01-30-04, 05:29 PM   #102 (permalink)
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Ok Inviticus, you are taking this thread way to personally. And your attitude is pathetic enough to start name calling, which is fine.

Quote:
So Gino, what you're telling me is, there is absolutely no way to prove that a snake is healthy due to its behavior? (And by this I mean more than temperament, so don't even try to ram that down my throat again.) Wow, talk about being uninformed. And by the way, you can keep your pompous, sarcastic "mind reading" comments to yourself.
Nope. Behaviour can be a sign of good health, but should never be used as a method of doing so. But if this is how you control your husbandry then so be it. From what I see, if your snakes don't jump up and tell you they are sick, bleed from their nostrils, etc etc, they are ok. Thats fine. But behaviour isn't a shouldn't be used as a method of determining health. It could be a guidline, not a method. But again, you will do what you want to, and I am uninformed.

Quote:
You're already coming across as an elitist know-it-all snob, so please don't exasperate the situation with your frankly petty comments.
Thats fine. Thats your opinion, which means nothing to me. I would sink to your level of name calling, but we wont go there.

Quote:
Jeff - I would like to re-emphasize for about the fifth time that I DO NOT HAVE ADULT PYTHONS OR BREEDING PAIRS OF ANY KIND IN MY HEATED ROOM. I am well aware of their additional requirements during breeding time, and would fully provide that for them. I really don't know why I have to keep repeating myself in these posts just to get a point across.
Sorry if he has mentioned any of this, but I haven't read his responses yet. So I look at that statement, and I now have figured out your attitude. You know what measures they live under in nature, and what they are accustomed too, but this is only important when breeding. Fair enough. At any other point it just doesn't matter whether or not they are under proper conditions. On a little side note, I think what Jeff was trying to get at was if they NEED those requirements for breeding, why wouldn't they need them at any other time?

Quote:
And you're still yet to prove to me that you've succesfully used a heat gradient. I mean, since you're not a mind reader and I apparently am, how do YOU know that your snakes are being kept well?
What I know is the conditions they are native to. And I also know they have lived and evolved under these conditions for ages. And I match these conditions. I do not know what you would like me to say?

Quote:
Or are you afraid to look like a complete a$$ when I show you that my snakes exhibit the exact same indicators of being in good health?
The only one looking like a complete *** here is you. I find this an awesome subject to debate, but you seem the feel the need to throw derogative comments and name call. But apparantly you aren't afraid to portray yourself in that manner. I do believe there signs indicating good health, but even with the presence of these indicators there is a chance of illness. But if to you, behaviour is the only dictator of health, then thats fine.

Quote:
So either answer this question, or get off my back Gino. This is 6 FRICKEN PAGES that you have been dodging the question now. And don't give me any crap about "the proof is in the pudding", because when I say that, it's apparently not good enough for you. Other people who have posted that they have used heated rooms with success, and others who know other who have successfully used heated rooms is not good enough for you. What this proves is, you have no interest whatsoever in "the proof is in the pudding". All you are interested in is who agrees with you and who doesn't. Now answer the damn question, because I'm getting really bored with your know-it-all posts that contain no factual information, and are full of nothing but self-contradictory remarks.
What do you not get in what I am explaining to you. I thought my analogy stated my point clearly. I will say it once more for you. I can live off lettuce for a long time, but that doesn't mean I am in good health. If you don't understand, I will explain a little more. Just because a snake breeds and eats, it doesn't necessarily mean they are under proper conditions. Thats all I am saying.

Quote:
All you are interested in is who agrees with you and who doesn't. Now answer the damn question, because I'm getting really bored with your know-it-all posts that contain no factual information, and are full of nothing but self-contradictory remarks
LOL! Ok man. I would like to know where all your factual information is. Me providing nature as my proof is twelve times better then you telling me that people breed snakes under these conditions. Please show where I am self-contradictory.

Again, and one more time for you, here is all I am trying to say: JUST BECAUSE PEOPLE HAVE BRED SNAKES UNDER THESE CONDITIONS, THAT DOES NOT MEAN IT IS OK. Afterall, I can raise an adult bearded dragon in a five gallon aquarium. I might even be able to get him to breed. Does that make it ok?

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Old 01-30-04, 05:33 PM   #103 (permalink)
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All in all, we have differences in opinions on captive husbandry. Fair enough dude. You need to stop the name calling though, there is no need to steep to that. In this industry, we all learn from eachother, and we all have our opinions until solid facts are upheaved from someplace or another. It is an awesome debate, I don't see why you must be so offensive.
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Old 01-30-04, 05:55 PM   #104 (permalink)
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settle down now people... there are many ways of doin' certain things and in my opinion, you're all right until the point your pet dies from old age. hows that sound

and dave, good post dude

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Old 01-30-04, 06:06 PM   #105 (permalink)
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I've really been trying to stay out of this but...... Gino you said
Again, and one more time for you, here is all I am trying to say: JUST BECAUSE PEOPLE HAVE BRED SNAKES UNDER THESE CONDITIONS, THAT DOES NOT MEAN IT IS OK. Afterall, I can raise an adult bearded dragon in a five gallon aquarium. I might even be able to get him to breed. Does that make it ok?

I think what Ken is trying to get across is that he could use that same argument about temp gradients. Just because most people keep snakes that way and get them to breed, does that mean it's the right way or the *only* way?
Ken isn't saying that it is wrong to keep snakes using a temp gradient, he is saying that no one is giving concrete proof that keeping them at one temp is harmful.
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