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Old 01-30-04, 12:32 AM   #76 (permalink)
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Originally posted by Jeff_Favelle
Better yet, please tell me how you'd gestate a gravid Indo or Aussie Python or a gravid boa at a constant 84F? I'm curious. Because if you've ever kept a gravid one with a CHOICE of temperatures, and then TEMP-GUNNED it, you'd know that it WASN'T 84F. So if you're method if fool-proof, how exactly would one gestate these snakes without a gradient. I'm very curious. Because if you can save me money on electricity, I'm all for it.

Wonder if my monitors would like to just live at 84F? They're like snakes.



You agree with Ken that established breeders are apprehensive to try new methods (NOT true) or you agree with Ken that keeping snakes at a constant temperature is a good husbandry practice. Wasn't really clear in your post.
I dont agree that keeping snakes in a constant temperature is a good husbandry practice. No one can tell you that except the snake itself. All im saying is that a snake can and will thrive in a heated room with no other source of heat. Many local breeders here in kentucky use heated rooms for there snakes with much success. Like i said before, this is not pertaining to breeding at all.

I find it funny that you bring up the point about mimicing the snakes natrual habitat. I guess throwing BRB;s for instance in 50gal rubbermaid is pretty close to the habitat in which they live in the wild. No waterfalls , trees, or anything close to what they live in the wild.

You say we should at least try to mimic the natrual habitat in which a snake lives but a small cage along with dead prey and everything eles that comes with caring for a snake is pretty much off from their natrual habitat. If we can put snakes in these conditions with them thriving then who is to say we cant change the temps and have them thrive as well?

Is there a limit to what we can do to these animals in captivity or is this not yet proven? I belive it hasnt been proven so go ahead and quote me on this again but untill you show me some solid evidence that this isnt true i will continue to stick with what i think.

You also talk about how someone can put you in jail and you wont be living happily but you will live. Do you think snakes like to live in the small cages we put them in or is this not true? Dont say captive breeds would'nt know any difrence because if that were true then they also wouldnt care about the temp changes as well.
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Old 01-30-04, 01:21 AM   #77 (permalink)
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I think that Ken and Jeff are both right in some ways.

But i am not really wanting to get in this. I would just like to ad that i have bred snakes in just a heated room before. And i have bred them with a Gradient. All snakes are different some are more hardy then others. And some just need to be kept different.
I'm not sure if this makes any sence Because i need SLEEP...lol

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Old 01-30-04, 08:26 AM   #78 (permalink)
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Jeff, I know that is the case with many coloubrids. That is why I clearly said:

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This one may also be argued against in certain cases, however for the most part why house snakes together? Because we can't afford separate enclosures
I am aware coloubrid keepers and the like may house certain species together, as there may be certain benefits. However, there is absolutely no reason to house two boa constrictors, nor two ball pythons together, for example.

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I keep lots of snakes in aquariums, including ball pythons! At small sizes, rubbermaids are great, but when you're talking about 3'-4' long units, I don't find them especially useful or readily available.
Read the posts a little more carefull man! We were clearly making a reference to the use of aquariums for ball pythons. And I also clearly said aquariums can be used, however it is much more work.

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Oh, and although I don't use sand except for sand boas, I assume you are informed about Calci-Sand, which is calcium carbonate and is completely digestible???
You actually think that works? Mimic the acid (hydrochloric acid) in your snakes stomache, put some of that stuff in, and tell me your results. Mine didn't fair so well.

My reference to the informed and misinformed was clearly separated where it should have been.
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Old 01-30-04, 08:41 AM   #79 (permalink)
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Gino,

You missed my point entirely, I have no interest in trying to debate each one of those examples I gave simultaneously, especially in a thread that has been off the rails for at least 3 pages. I'll let someone else dust off those old debates, I've heard what most people will have to say on those subjects anyway.

The point I was trying to make before you got distracted by my examples was that there is a population of members here that have married themselves to current popular husbandry methods and are awful quick to jump on anyone that even wants to discuss anything different.

I wish that the people who think the art of snake husbandry has been perfected would have a look at what the "experts" were saying just 10 years ago or for a bigger laugh 20 years ago. Do you think there were people around then that clung to some of the stuff we know now to be nonsense? I'll bet there were.

Point is that the popular methods have evolved greatly in the last 20 -30 years and will continue to evolve in the future so it would be smart to consider that any of the stuff people preach now could very well be out of fashion 10 years from now, even if those preaching have made a couple of snakes hump a few times.

Breeding snakes can make you money, it can make you popular on this website, it can make people believe what you have to say but it can't make your beliefs infallible.
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Old 01-30-04, 09:47 AM   #80 (permalink)
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What is the big difference between housing some corns together, and housing some ball pythons or boa constrictors together? The concerns/risks are the same, and the benefits are the same (unless you believe that garters are social creatures, which I don't).

I have two adult boa constrictors in the same enclosure, and three adult ball pythons in another. While I am not especially interested in breeding either species, both have produced babies for us (balls- clutches of 10 and 14 eggs, 100% fertility). I'm not saying that this is the ultimate way to keep them. But we have reasons for doing so that extend beyond not being able to afford additional cages.

Personally, I hate to see words like absolutely, never and always, especially with respect to animal husbandry.

I'm just saying, give people a little bit of credit, and space to do things a bit differently, without jumping on them for having bad husbandry.

Interesting note about the calci-sand- I've always just taken their word for it. I do have some hydrochloric acid here. I will check it and report back!

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Old 01-30-04, 09:51 AM   #81 (permalink)
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Quote:
Oh, and although I don't use sand except for sand boas, I assume you are informed about Calci-Sand, which is calcium carbonate and is completely digestible???

Just so you know, Calci Sand has the same ingrdients as TUMS and ROLAIDS, which NUTRALISES stomach acid.. so no it isn't digestable. If you want proof, well the AFT I bought Saturday (who was kept on the calci sand) ate Sat / Sun / Monday and no poop. Finally on Tuesday he DID poop, and it was FULL of this so called digestible sand. so was the poop he had on Thursday.. a little less but only because the store only had him for 4 days before I bought him, so he probably didn't ingest as much as he could have say if they had him on it for months. I went to the shop yesterday and told the guy who is in charge of the reptiles this, and he was all like, oh, I didn't know that... and then changed the substrate.. so no personally because of what I have seen, Calci Sand is NOT digestable and SHOULD NOT be used...
IMO.

As for Balls in aquariums, Well 8ball has been in a 3 foot tank since we had him, with a screen lid. I have duct tape over part of it to keep in the humidity. I don't EVER have to spray except when he is shedding and even then, I didn't spray him and the shed was perfect. I haven't had to do anything more to his cage or him to render it "more complicated" so for me personally, from my experience, that isn't an accurate statement either. maybe initially it may take more time to adjust, BUT your tank should be ready before your snake arrives anyway so you take the time you need to make it work. I don't have to pay any more attention to my ball's encloisure as I do to say My leo's, who by the way I never worry about... but this is just my personal experience again...
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Old 01-30-04, 11:08 AM   #82 (permalink)
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So Gino, what you're telling me is, there is absolutely no way to prove that a snake is healthy due to its behavior? (And by this I mean more than temperament, so don't even try to ram that down my throat again.) Wow, talk about being uninformed. And by the way, you can keep your pompous, sarcastic "mind reading" comments to yourself. You're already coming across as an elitist know-it-all snob, so please don't exasperate the situation with your frankly petty comments.

Jeff - I would like to re-emphasize for about the fifth time that I DO NOT HAVE ADULT PYTHONS OR BREEDING PAIRS OF ANY KIND IN MY HEATED ROOM. I am well aware of their additional requirements during breeding time, and would fully provide that for them. I really don't know why I have to keep repeating myself in these posts just to get a point across.

Joshm - Your example is even dumber. 1) I am not a snake, I am a warm blooded mammal. 2) I don't have a 90 degree room. So asking me how I would feel in a 90 degree room is like asking me if I like oranges - it has NOTHING to do with ANYTHING.

And you're still yet to prove to me that you've succesfully used a heat gradient. I mean, since you're not a mind reader and I apparently am, how do YOU know that your snakes are being kept well? What are the indicators? Or are you afraid to look like a complete a$$ when I show you that my snakes exhibit the exact same indicators of being in good health? So either answer this question, or get off my back Gino. This is 6 FRICKEN PAGES that you have been dodging the question now. And don't give me any crap about "the proof is in the pudding", because when I say that, it's apparently not good enough for you. Other people who have posted that they have used heated rooms with success, and others who know other who have successfully used heated rooms is not good enough for you. What this proves is, you have no interest whatsoever in "the proof is in the pudding". All you are interested in is who agrees with you and who doesn't. Now answer the damn question, because I'm getting really bored with your know-it-all posts that contain no factual information, and are full of nothing but self-contradictory remarks.
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Old 01-30-04, 12:18 PM   #83 (permalink)
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Kne how do you know that your animals are in good health, on the outside they may apear to be but what is happening on the inside. You may think that your animals are in good shape. Why would you give them means that are not natural, you tell me 1 reptile that lives in consant heat. My example is to show you that it would suck living at the same temps with nowhere to retreat from the heat. I told you go find some rattlers this summer and they will show you they don't lay around in the baking sun all day. So if they do this in the wild why wouldn't you give them the choices in your home. Once again you dodge and dodge, but still can't prove a damn thing.
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Old 01-30-04, 12:33 PM   #84 (permalink)
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Things have calmed down it seems!

There is something very stupid going on here. Favelle and I are talking about keeping snakes and being successful in all their behaviours with gradients...i.e. Favelle and I have been constesting that anyone can breed pythons and boas without gradient.

You are talking about general care. Yet still insisting we tell you how you are harming your animals. But we can't, because you aren't. I mentioned like half a dozen times I agreed with that. MY Point is you will won't have BREEDING success with those animals at a constant 84...or 86 or whatever. I have said that over and over yet you just keep SCREAMING back "HOW AM I HARMING THEM" like some sort of machine I put a 25 cent piece in.

So clearly none of us can have this debate anymore. Ken is talking about husbandry and general health success. Favelle, and I were talking about overall breeding success. Obviously two different things. Ken could keep his snakes in a non gradient forever, but for those of us trying to breed it won't work. I don't think EITHER side can argue that.

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Old 01-30-04, 12:54 PM   #85 (permalink)
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"you dodge and dodge, but still can't prove a damn thing"

And neither can you, Josh, so back off. I have not dodged a single thing. You have presented challenges to me, and I have answered them directly. You can't prove that my snakes are not comfortable. I can't prove that they are according to you, Gino, and Jeff. Here's the fact: Ectotherms thermoregulate in the wild in order to maintain a CONSTANT temperature. Each reptile has what is called a PBT - Preferred Body Temperature. By providing a constant temperature for them, I am eliminating their need to use their environment to achieve their PBT (which by the way, is usually between 80 and 84 degrees for about 90% of all snakes.) They regulate in the wild because of extremes - 110 degree sunlight, or a 65 degree rainy day. None of those extremes exist in my heated room, so no regulation is required for them.

Marisa - You're right - I am talking about general care. And as I mentioned, I do not have any breeding pairs of anything in this room. They are all babies. I'd like to also add that recognize that pythons seem to be the only species that I know of that literally requires a thermal gradient during breeding time - I know many people who breed colubrids in constant-temp rooms, as well as boa constrictors. But it's irrelevant to me and to this debate anyway - all of my adult and sub-adult boas and pythons do have a gradient available to them, because they are all in custom enclosures which have a hot and a cool side.
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Old 01-30-04, 01:43 PM   #86 (permalink)
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I always miss all of the big debates. I have considered both methods of heating for my animals many times and always came back to the same conclusion, that it would be in my best interest to try and simulate the conditions they would have in the wild. Now in the wild you are going to have all sorts of different temp gradients (Shade,burrows,direct sun,leaf litter,etc). I do apologize if I say a few thing that may have already been said but I could only skim this whole thread. Anyways, snakes will seek out the temp they require for the task at hand. The most apparent example being BASKING. This behavour is used for getting ready go hunting for food, (Heat=Energy) digestion, and this is just a couple of reasons. In the wild they have alot of different temps to chose from so why would I just give them one.. I know ambiant heating will work but I feel it limits the animals natural instincts and may affect future breeding attempts. I don't know what my animals are thinking so I leave it up to them to decide what they would like...


Jeff F- Don't Diamonds also Shiver around clutches to regulate temps like burms do?? I got to see a burm coiled around a clutch and it was such a cool site!

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Old 01-30-04, 01:53 PM   #87 (permalink)
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....

Quote:
Jeff - I would like to re-emphasize for about the fifth time that I DO NOT HAVE ADULT PYTHONS OR BREEDING PAIRS OF ANY KIND IN MY HEATED ROOM. I am well aware of their additional requirements during breeding time, and would fully provide that for them. I really don't know why I have to keep repeating myself in these posts just to get a point across.
Ok, so now it changes. During breeding time, NOW you give them the choice of extra heat. This is new. We are progressing. But every so slowly.....



Quote:
I'd like to also add that recognize that pythons seem to be the only species that I know of that literally requires a thermal gradient during breeding time - I know many people who breed colubrids in constant-temp rooms, as well as boa constrictors.
Ken boas ARE pythons man (basically). The "can" gestate at 84F but its not advisable. Temp gun a gravid boa in ANY collection of ANY breeder worth his/her salt in N. America, and it won't be 84F. Before follicular development maybe. But when its gravid. I think Marshell temp-gunned some of his at 90F last year. I've had the Rainbows at 92F (2000, and 2001)!! And they are supposedly cold-loving!

And this is the root of the problem. You are making assumptions and guess based on what others have told you, without first doing it yourself. I find that dangerous and I hope no newcomers to the hobby are going to follow your husbandry methods.

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Jeff F- Dont Diamonds also Shiver around clutches to regulate temps like burms do?? I got to see a burm coiled around a clutch and it was such a cool site!
ALL pythons coil, some shiver. But I don't think any raise the temps as high as a Burm could. Maybe Retics and Rocks, but I doubt it. They are from such hot areas anyways. And even a Burm is going to have a hard time raising the heat from 84F to 89-91F.
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Old 01-30-04, 02:06 PM   #88 (permalink)
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I'll agree with with Ken and say i too have spoken with a few american breeders who have created many of the new morphs out there .... and many of them use ambient heat for everything that is not being bred.
By this i mean, hatchlings to sub-adults, only when they are planned to breed do they go into gradient heated cages...
Can this be done with all snakes? probably not, some are more sensitive then others.
but some? sure. theres tons of proof.
Ken never stated he breeds them using just ambient temps...and quite frankly, i dont agree that "breeding" a snake holds any more weight then just "keeping" a snake healthy and long lived as a measure of success.
but i do agree that its essential for most species to have a gradient if they are to bred.
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Old 01-30-04, 02:12 PM   #89 (permalink)
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Jeff F- I am not sure what the background temps were but Diamonds have raised the temp 9C-13C while shivering. I would guess these snakes need this ability due to cooler background temps.
And yes I know all pythons coil...lol
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Old 01-30-04, 02:15 PM   #90 (permalink)
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I'm going to have to side with the heat gradient method mainly because I don't know what the ideal temp is so I'll just let the snake decide. Maybe we need to get the Pet Psychic to ask them what they want...lol.
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