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Old 01-29-04, 09:00 PM   #61 (permalink)
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What I think is SO pathetic is that A) People think it's absolutely inconceivable that a n00b might know a thing or two, and that maybe, just MAYBE has a proven method of snake care that is yet to yield any negative effects whatsoever.
Quite irrelevant in this case (MY opinion, don't spazzz) as the LENGTH of time you've been keeping them and the number that you keep, statistically, you could have easily avoided any problems. Easily. But add a decade to your keeping time, add 100 animals and 12 more species, and THEN you might see what we're talking about.

Also, I can live in jail for 30 years with water and bred etc etc etc, but what is my quality of life? Just because your snake can liv without a regurge and doesn't bite when you grab it, does not make your husbandry A-1. Ha ha, not sure why you think it does. We are keeping animals in tiny fragments of space. These animals come from areas where there are literally hundreds of microhabitats and they have a myriad of chioces for thermoregulation. And thermoregulation is but ONE tiny part of their life history! I think it would behoove us as keeper to at least somewhat try and mimic what CONDITIONS temperature and humidity-wise these animals have evolved for thousands of years to cope with. I can breed dogs in 8x4x4 wooded tanks and have them not regurge and breed and have babies just fine. But I wouldn't do it. I realize that just because it doesn't regurge or breeds normally, doesn't necessarily mean I'm doing the best for the animal. And isn't that what we really want?

I sure hope it is.
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Old 01-29-04, 09:05 PM   #62 (permalink)
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Gino, you are still dodging the point. You say my snakes are not healthy, are not thriving, and that the proof I've offered means nothing. So there is no debate. You have yet to PROVE that my snakes are being kept in a way that is uncomfortable, and you have also yet to answer my question - what signs would be present if a snake WAS content with its surroundings? What signs would be there if it wasn't? Can YOU prove that YOUR snakes are in perfect health and are thriving? No? Didn't think so. So until you can PROVE that my snakes are being kept wrong, don't criticize me for doing things differently than you.

Jeff - I don't have theories about why they don't post here. I have conversations. Not all of them have said the same thing, but some have said exactly what I have quoted. But that is an entire side issue now that should be dropped - I am a man of honor, and when I tell someone their name will not be brought up, it will not be brought up. Not here, not in PM, NOWHERE. Again, bottom line - you want proof? Fine. PROVE to me that snakes are somehow harmed by keeping them at a constant temp.
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Old 01-29-04, 09:13 PM   #63 (permalink)
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Another thing... thermoregulation becomes important when a snake is dealing with extremes - ie, 110 degrees under the direct sunlight. At this point, of course they will seek shade. A constant temp ranging from 75-77 at night to 80-84 during the day is HARDLY an extreme by which a snake would be uncomfortable enough to need to cool off.
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Old 01-29-04, 09:24 PM   #64 (permalink)
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LOL this thread is getting pretty hectic Who'da thought tempers would flare so much over how to heat snakes?

One thing I wanted to comment on, is that using temperament to guage the animals health is not by any means ideal. Often sick snakes, or snakes that are below their temperature needs are very calm and "relaxed". Even when animals are being kept suffificiently enough to successfully breed, when exposed to optimum conditions (such as monitors in the sun), may even appear high strung and full of beans Aggression can be indicative of both superior and inferior health, as well as lack there of.

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Originally posted by mild
Although i may be a noob with 11 post...

...If a well known breeder or a high poster on these forums comes along and says they do something one way it seems every other way is wrong and your considered a noob for trying something new.
Being newbie has nothing to do with how many number of posts you make, even someone who has never kept an animal in their life could end up having a whole lot of posts, it doesn't make them a credible source however

There are a lot of tried and true methods, and there is nothing wrong with trying something new, after all, nobody knows everything there is to know about snakes. Some thing speople want to try however, are obviously not for the better, I am not saying this in application to any of this discussion. Also, without the necessary experience themselves, with great success in keeping this, one cannot say that this way or that is the best way. Basing something on the animal just being kept at certain conditions is also not proof that it is optimum, if that animals is successfully bred then it provides a better base for arguement.
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Old 01-29-04, 09:33 PM   #65 (permalink)
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PROVE to me that snakes are somehow harmed by keeping them at a constant temp.
Better yet, please tell me how you'd gestate a gravid Indo or Aussie Python or a gravid boa at a constant 84F? I'm curious. Because if you've ever kept a gravid one with a CHOICE of temperatures, and then TEMP-GUNNED it, you'd know that it WASN'T 84F. So if you're method if fool-proof, how exactly would one gestate these snakes without a gradient. I'm very curious. Because if you can save me money on electricity, I'm all for it.

Wonder if my monitors would like to just live at 84F? They're like snakes.

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I have to agree with Invictus %100
You agree with Ken that established breeders are apprehensive to try new methods (NOT true) or you agree with Ken that keeping snakes at a constant temperature is a good husbandry practice. Wasn't really clear in your post.
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Old 01-29-04, 09:35 PM   #66 (permalink)
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Gino, you are still dodging the point. You say my snakes are not healthy, are not thriving, and that the proof I've offered means nothing. So there is no debate. You have yet to PROVE that my snakes are being kept in a way that is uncomfortable, and you have also yet to answer my question - what signs would be present if a snake WAS content with its surroundings? What signs would be there if it wasn't? Can YOU prove that YOUR snakes are in perfect health and are thriving? No? Didn't think so. So until you can PROVE that my snakes are being kept wrong, don't criticize me for doing things differently than you.
Dodging the point? Hardely. My proof is in the pudding. I do not claim to know what reptiles or feeling, nor am I capable of predicting health. Nor am I capable of determining the health of an animal from looking at it, or because it eats and shits. Can't forget because it doesn't leap out of the cage and attack you, or anything like that. Did I say my snakes are in perfect health? Have I ever claimed to be a snake expert as you seem to portray yourself, with the ultimate power to read their minds? No. All I know is how snakes live in the wild. And what they need to live. If your don't understand this, then I am sorry what can I say. What else do you want to know from me? And how they have evolved to live. This, you do not seem to understand. But then again, having the godlike power to read the minds of reptiles, I am sure you have the ability to change the way the live, for the good. All along I have stood by the fact that I, nor anyone else, can determine the well-being of a snake, or ANY reptile at that, simply because their behaviour seems 'normal.'
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Old 01-29-04, 09:36 PM   #67 (permalink)
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Another thing... thermoregulation becomes important when a snake is dealing with extremes - ie, 110 degrees under the direct sunlight. At this point, of course they will seek shade. A constant temp ranging from 75-77 at night to 80-84 during the day is HARDLY an extreme by which a snake would be uncomfortable enough to need to cool off.
No Ken. Snakes thermoregulate to acheive certain life events. Yes they have behavioural mechanisms to AVOID temperature extremes, but when the air is a balmy 84F, boas will STILL choose other temps at certain times to acheive certain tasks. THAT is thermoregulation. Cooler temps to produce and move follicles around, higher temps to gestate or to digest food. Cooler temps to conserve fat reserves or energy (its WHY reptiles are 10000x more efficient than mammals). Etc etc etc.......
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Old 01-29-04, 09:42 PM   #68 (permalink)
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Thank you, I was just about to clear that up. Couldn't have said it better myself. But damn, here I go again sucking up to Jeff because he is right about something. With all this sucking up I am sure he will eventually throw me some free albino ball pythons.
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Old 01-29-04, 10:16 PM   #69 (permalink)
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I'm not about to pretend I have the answer to this debate but I must admit that I have noticed that certain things are fashionable or popular here, while other practices are sure to get you a long lecture from a series of over-enthusiastic posters that are simply bursting with righteous indignation.

Anyone who doesn't believe that this site isn't a strange reptilian microcosm that includes everything any group of highschool kids has (cliques, the "cool kids", losers, foreigners and freaks...etc.) should try bringing up live feedings, housing snakes together, keeping a BP in an aquarium, venomoids, sand substrate... and I guess we can add the topic of this thread to that list too. There is a tendancy for people to find something that seems to work and then swear it's the only way.

I don't get why we can't just share our experiences with eachother and take advice when we like it and leave it when we don't instead of shitting on someone when we don't agree with the way they do something.
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Old 01-29-04, 10:23 PM   #70 (permalink)
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How much sucking up do you need to do to get a nice set of Piebalds?
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Old 01-29-04, 10:33 PM   #71 (permalink)
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Mousakilla, I hardely find those causes for 'cliques.' In that case, there is the informed and uninformed. Aside from live feeding, housing snakes together, keeping a BP in an aquarium, venomoids, and the use of sand substrate with certain reptiles are deemed wrong for a reason. The informed understand this, the uninformed don't. For the obvious reasons, and I am sure it doesn't take a rocket scientist to understand them, snakes should not be housed together. It is so obvious I wont even explain why. Venomoids, obvious too. Unless of course you support the brutality of innocent creatures just so someone can be a tough guy and freehandle a 'hot.' I guess, if you don't mind the butchering of animals, you can argue against that too. Now, keeping BP's in aquariums is by all means possible. However, it is much more difficult and requires much more work to do so. These are proven facts. So I don't think it would be fair to say NOT to use aquariums for them, just that there are PROVEN better and easier ways. Now sand, again, should not be used. Sure, you can take the risk, thats your choice. I am tempted to say again that the informed would not use sand, and the uninformed would. In this case, however, there could be some points argued. Personally, I say it is not worth the risk. Thats how I look at it. None of these have anything to do with cliques, groups of people, groups of beliefs, etc. They have to do with proven facts. It is proven that sand causes impactions, and is obviously not digestable. It is proven bearded dragons, despite what everyone thinks, do NOT live on sand. It is a known fact that venomoid surgeries are done mostly by non-professional veterinarian wanna be's. And for that case in particular, I see absolutely no reason to butcher the animal. I am sure there are other points to argue but I have 0 experience in the venomous fieled. It is a proven fact that rubbermaids hold humidity better then an aquarium with a screen lid. In a lot of the cases, it has to do with whats right and whats wrong. From my perspective, I cannot see why anyone would WANT to use sand for bearded dragons. I am using them for an example because thats where it is discussed most often. I just do not see why it is necessary to take the risks, when there are safer, better alternatives. I don't see why you would want to go through all the work to maintain proper humidity in an aquarium when you could easily fix the problem and hold steady humidity levels in a rubbermaid. This one may also be argued against in certain cases, however for the most part why house snakes together? Because we can't afford separate enclosures? I do not see why it is necessary to butcher an animal so some loser can act like a tough guy because he can freehandle.

With live feedings, however, I do believe there are cliques, and what not. Basically, what I find is that people see live feeding labelled as BAD and jump on the bandwagon and go posting in every thread ' DO NOT FEED LIVE. ' Through my experience and knowledge, I have determined that live feeding is sometimes necessary, however I see no reason to feed live if the snake in question takes f/t without any questions. I approach husbandry for whats best for the snake, and put my needs last, or in some cases my needs are not tended to whatsoever. If I can't afford to give the snake ANYTHING and EVERYTHING it needs, I don't get him. It is not a question of taking shortcuts. You either do it properly, and to the best of your ability, or not at all. I also approach husbandry by taking as few risks as I possibly can. I pose these questions:

Why keep a reptile on sand? Is it really necessary? This is absent of the exceptions which need sand to live properly (eg. Israli Sand Geckos, Sand Boas, etc.). Bearded dragons in no way require sand to live, and it does more worse then good IMO.

Why feed live? Is it really worth taking the risk of your snake getting bit? This is with the exception of problem feeders. But aside from them, I ask why?

Why butcher a snake? I see no reason, for the snakes well being, to make a venomoid. In captive husbandry, the needs of us, the keepers, should (in most cases) be ignored. It is the animal that matters, not what we want.

Not as importantly, yet still valid: why keep a snake in an aquarium? The ONLY reason I see is so that we can set up an enclosure that appeals to us. Why do that when you can maintain proper and steady humidity and control temperatures more readily, regularly and accurately in a rubbermaid?

Why house snakes together? They are solitary animals, you risk transfering disease, etc. There are hundreds of reasons not to. So why do it?

Ask yourselves these questions. I guarantee you the answers to EACH and EVERY one relies on what WE want. What WE want should not mean a damn thing, the reptiles needs and wellbeing comes before ANYTHING. That is the way husbandry should be approached. Think about that.

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Old 01-29-04, 10:50 PM   #72 (permalink)
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Ken if the gino is dodging your questions, again I would like to ask you how you would like being put in a room at 90 with hot water from the heat and no cool end to retreat to. Jeff and many others have thrown tonnes of proof your way, but your still going down fighting, sit back relax and think about it.
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Old 01-29-04, 10:51 PM   #73 (permalink)
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Not all snakes shouldn't be housed together. Garters for example, can be kept several to an enclosure. They'll even gravitate to the same hide when there's several to choose from. They're quite social.

I don't know about other breeds, so won't argue Just wanted to point out blanket statements like that aren't always right.
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Old 01-29-04, 11:31 PM   #74 (permalink)
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I wouldn't go as far as saying they are social. No snake should be housed together, in my opinion. In nature, however, they are often found in groups of 2+ hiding under rocks, boards, etc. But they still shouldn't be housed together. They risk transferring disease, you have more then one animal dirtying a particular enclosure, all the things that go with feeding, etc. Not housing snakes together extends further then them being solitary.
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Old 01-30-04, 12:20 AM   #75 (permalink)
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Gino,

I know there are many reasons (though not hundreds) not to house snakes together, but I've been doing it quite successfully (don't even ask me to define this) for 10 years. For a variety of reasons, it works for our situation. Does this make me uninformed?

Not to mention, while I am a big fan of rubbermaid, I keep lots of snakes in aquariums, including ball pythons! At small sizes, rubbermaids are great, but when you're talking about 3'-4' long units, I don't find them especially useful or readily available.

Unquestionably though, I'll agree that garters aren't social! They might all be in the same hide, but it is because that location is the temperature they all want to be at the time.

If what we want didn't mean a damn thing, then why would we have reptiles in captivity in the first place? Wouldn't we just put all our resources into conserving them in the wild and seeing them there?

Oh, and although I don't use sand except for sand boas, I assume you are informed about Calci-Sand, which is calcium carbonate and is completely digestible???

One more time, for the record, I still like temperature gradients. But, I think you should back off a bit on your assessments of things people should or shouldn't do, and who is informed or not!

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