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Old 01-28-04, 08:45 PM   #31 (permalink)
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I wanted to avoid this thread because I cannot believe some of the answers, but wanted to mention I agree with Jeff, once more, 100%.
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Old 01-28-04, 08:50 PM   #32 (permalink)
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And again, I'd like to reiterate that I haven't just shown the success with my own collection. I talk to many high profile breeders who have been keeping snakes at a constant temperature for decades, and their snakes are in fact thriving. Of course a snake will use a heat gradient if it's available to them - however, I have seen nothing to convince me that they NEED this gradient to survive or even to be comfortable. It's like giving a boa constrictor a climbing branch - of course it will use it from time to time if it's there. But it certainly doesn't require it to live. Look at Tim Cranwill's example of the U of M - I don't think you need much more proof than that.
What success? I mean no insult or anything but I would like to know what you refer to as success, other then keeping a snake alive. I too would like to know the high profile breeders who keep there snakes at constants, I guess through the decades they have yet to learn a thing!

I think Jeff said it perfectly, and I would like to quote it:

Quote:
Keeping thing alive and observing them to NOT move when your cage is a certain temperature is NOT a measure of thriving. Its just a testimonial as to how hardy these damn things are, and how they can survive under such adverse conditions.
Exactly.
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Old 01-29-04, 01:41 PM   #33 (permalink)
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I sent the breeders in question an email asking if I could mention them here, and they have all asked specifically to be left out of online conversations. Not that I blame them, because as soon as somone comes along and does something different within this community, they are labelled as having bad husbandry. This can be potentially damaging to many reptile breeders' businesses.

Gino, your response is proof positive of this. Saying "I guess through the decades they have yet to learn a thing" is akin to saying "Well since they don't agree with me and Jeff, they are WRONG." I'm personally getting fed up with husbandry debates too, because you are no more capable of proving that you are merely keeping your snakes alive than I am. Want my definition of success? Fine, here goes:

- The snakes eat like pigs
- Not one regurgitation
- No aggression, which you would expect from a snake that is uncomfortable with its surroundings.
- They shed like clockwork
- They don't cruise their cage much (well, the corns do, but they always do that anyway!)
- When provided with a hot and a cool spot, they NEVER use the cool spot anyway.

And in the case of the other breeders I have learned the ropes from:

- They breed every season, huge clutches, no slugs, and healthy babies.

But, I realize the most popular opinion is that a gradient is required. Fine. Whatever. I guess I am a bad snake keeper, with all of my healthy, happy snakes that are showing no signs whatsoever of being malcontent with their environments, and are behaviorally exactly the same as other snakes of the same species who have a thermal gradient. So Gino, instead of just sucking up to Jeff, and placing the onus of proving that my snakes are thriving on me, why don't you try and prove to me that they are not? Why don't YOU describe what signs or behaviors you look for in order to determine that YOUR snakes are healthy and content? I bet anything you say will match the behaviors of my snakes to the letter.
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Old 01-29-04, 01:57 PM   #34 (permalink)
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...

They never use the cool spot? I guess you have never bred pythons, because in the months (weeks) leading up to follicle building and ovulation, all my pythons seek out the cool end and most tend to do the famous "one loop around the water dish". Not sure why yours don't. Maybe you have magic snakes that can just do all their life processes at 84F.

And don't get so mad and fed up. If you can't discuss husbandry issues without getting spazzy, then perhaps an online forum about discussing husbandry is not for you.

Also, don't get mad when its not enough for my, or Gino, etc etc to just have you say "I know successful breeders doing this...and I know successful breeders doing that....bla bla bla". I'm sorry, but with this day and age of easy internet access, and digital cameras, etc etc, there should be no way that they couldn't just prove their point. But no, again we're hidden in the dark as to who these mysterious breeders are who have these awesome methods.

Byt if their methods are so good for the snakes, you'd think that maybe they'd pipe up. I mean, are they so greedy or so in it for the profit that they wouldn't want to share their wonderful husbandry methods, even if it risks (god forbid!) a DISCUSSION about snake husbandry? I mean, I know its deathly awful talking about snakes and how to keep them, but .........

Tongue firmly in cheek.

P.S. Just because two people agree on a particular aspect of husbandry, does not mean either one is sucking up to the other at all. If that was the case, I guess one could say the same about you and your phantom breeders with overhead lights, no heat gradient, snakes that don't thermoregulate because they just sit there, etc etc
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Old 01-29-04, 02:14 PM   #35 (permalink)
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They might not have the proper heat and that is why they never leave it. Just an opinion I don't keep your snakes, so you would know best. As for the sucking up thing that was uncalled for, two people can't have the same views.
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Old 01-29-04, 02:16 PM   #36 (permalink)
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The only part of snake (well....boid) husbandry that is still terribly confusing to me is basking light vs. UTH. Which one is really better (if either)? When my bp is given the choice, she always heads for the hide under the light. I would love to hear more discussion on that issue.
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Old 01-29-04, 02:29 PM   #37 (permalink)
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One thing I don't understand is who are all these breeders you are speaking of?

Canada has a fairly small reptile community. While there are many breeders who do not come online, most do. And being as Jeff (as example) has been in this many years, wouldn't he also have talked to these breeders and gotten this information just to make his own business more successful? Or are they secret breeders? No offense, seriously, I just do not understand why in this thread and others you keep refering to this secret network of breeders who are afraid to share their success with the rest of us!

If its so great, why wouldn't they share? Why have they not documented this information in a way other reptile keepers can share it? Why are they only sharing this information with you and letting you spokesman the information to us? Sorry, again no offense, no acusing you, not attacking you, just trying to make sense of this.

I have seen with my own eyes, pythons using the cool side for ovulation. It has NOTHING TO DO WITH SUCKING UP TO JEFF! They seek out cooler temps for ovulating. My own python did this herself this winter....it wasn't me pretending so I can agree with Jeff...I witnesses this with my own eyes. Although she didn't curl up around the dish....she spent over a month on the extreme cool end, never ever resting on the hot side. Do you have adult pythons ovulating? Just curious.

You say here:
"because you are no more capable of proving that you are merely keeping your snakes alive than I am"

How is that? Jeff has breed captive pythons for like what? three or more generations? Daughters breeding, grand daiughters breeding...don't you think a person with that type of experience can say a little bit more than someone who hasn't even owned snakes for a year yet? Keeping snakes alive, or breeding generations and generations....which one is more successful? Its not that hard to see. Or someone who has never attempted breeding? Not cutting you down, I myself haven't breed pythons and I constantly admit my own hands on experience level is low. How can I possibly argue something with people who have? Doesn't make sense. If I MYSELF prove I can breed pythons with NO cool side, with no acess to different temps, then don't you think thats a better platform for me to argue with?

Are you saying pythons do not need cooler temps when trying to retreat to ovulate? I am just confused?

Marisa

Last edited by marisa; 01-29-04 at 02:33 PM..
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Old 01-29-04, 03:56 PM   #38 (permalink)
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From what i have read on this thread if one of these breeders did come forward and share some info as to how they use a heated room with success the onlything they would get in responce is *thats bad husbandry*

Some people are just to stuck on what they belive and wont change there mind about anything even if proven. It's been proven that a ball python for instance can live its intire life on mice but that still doesnt stop people from feeding rats.

The reason for this thread was to know if snakes could live with a gradient temp and nothing eles. Not to know if they could breed. I know for a fact many coulbrids can and do live in normal room temps with no other heat source and thrive. Breeding is a whole nother subject.

Keeping pythons alive and eating well with nothing but a gradient temp has been proven for me as my friend has done this quite some time. The real questions is whats your definition of proven? Sure, anyone can come on here and say they use nothing but a heated room with no problems but that doesnt prove a thing. seeing it first hand is the only way to know for sure so if anyone wants to know this such as giNo then why dont you experiment on your own before you try and stand your ground on something you have not seen nor done first hand.
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Old 01-29-04, 04:48 PM   #39 (permalink)
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All I'm going to say is this: No, I do not have adult pythons ovulating. I'm not denying that they seek cooler temps when they are ovulating.

Another thing... if you took a list of the top 5 breeders in Canada, and say, the top 20 breeders in the states, I guarantee you 80% of them do not post here, do not get involved in husbandry debates, and do not give a damn what Jeff Favelle, Gino, or anyone else thinks about husbandry. The reason why they don't post here is because they, like me, think it's pathetic how just because ONE method is proven to work, people think it's the ONLY method that will work.

I'm throwing my arms in the air for this debate. What I think is SO pathetic is that A) People think it's absolutely inconceivable that a n00b might know a thing or two, and that maybe, just MAYBE has a proven method of snake care that is yet to yield any negative effects whatsoever. And B) That you people seem to think that I would mention these "mystery breeders" just so that I could be right, and prove everyone else wrong. I have a certain finger reserved for anyone here who thinks that. If I say that I've been talking to very high profile breeders since I got into this hobby, and they have specifically asked me not to mention them with husbandry debates because they don't subscribe to the same practises as everyone else, it's because I've talked to high profile breeders who have specifically asked not to be mentioned. It's not because I'm trying to win a debate with no substance. It's because whenever I try anything new or different, I seek opinions of people who I respect, who have a proven track record, and who happen to have different methods than some of you might have. If they tell me it's a bad practice, I DON'T DO IT. If they tell me they have had success with the same method, I take their word for it.

What is UNCALLED FOR here Marisa, is your throwing my 1 year of experience in my face, the assumptions that you, Jeff, and Gino are making about the means by which I debate points, and the implication that I somehow make up a secret network of breeders just so that I can be right. If I was practising bad husbandry, I would change it in a second. But through the correspondence I've had with some top notch reptile keepers, I've chosen what I feel works best for me and my animals for the time being.

So if you want to insinuate that I'm practicing bad husbandry and making things up, take it to a PM so I can freely tell you where you can shove your assumptions. THIS is why the breeders I talk to don't participate in these debates - the last few posts are case in point. Even if they did post here, people would probably still say "Well, you've only bred TWO generations, so you don't know what you're talking about", or "Well, you've only been keeping them X number of years, so you don't know what you're talking about!"

I apologize for the harshness of this response, and I'm sure Jeff is going to have something condescending and sarcastic to say about it, but frankly, I don't give a rat's a$$ anymore. I'm fed up with bandwagon jumping, assumptions, and my lack of reptile KEEPING experience being used as a weapon when I try to say "Hey, your way is great, but there are other ways that are proven too." Of course I don't have the honor of being able to say that I've done this for 20 years. So I have to rely on information I've obtained from people who HAVE. Unfortunately, they have asked me not to ever mention them. That sucks for me. So I'm bowing out of this horsesh!t, just as they have. Believe what you want about me. After all, I'm just a newbie right? What the hell would I know?
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Old 01-29-04, 04:55 PM   #40 (permalink)
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You know guys, there was a time when everyone believe the world was flat...and that used to be the only assumption too. I personally feel that Invictus is right. I do use temp gradients but especially with my Boa, she tends to ALWAYS stay on the 84 degree hide. but then again, I too only have been keeping herps for a few months so...
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Old 01-29-04, 05:08 PM   #41 (permalink)
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DUDE...CHILL! Nobody is out to get you. We all come here to learn, and to help each other learn. I am 41 and have been playing with snakes all my life and I think I know a little sumtin aboutem. But I'm proven wrong every day. With that I'd just like to say whatever works for you is fine... BUT...If one person calls you a horse you might ignore it... if two people call you a horse, you might think there may be somthin to it...if three people call you a horse, you may want to start shopping for a saddle. Good luck.
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Old 01-29-04, 05:26 PM   #42 (permalink)
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Sorry "dude", but I will not chill. People who come here to "learn" something have two choices - either jump on the bandwagon of popular opinions here, or get called down for being a moron. Learning means observing the different ways things are done, and trying them to find out what works best for you... not calling someone down for being a n00b, even though they also have a proven method.

Back in the days of Sigmund Freud, there was another psychologist named Willhelm Reich. He had a WAY different means of thinking. His ideas, at the time, were frowned upon and even shunned by the psychology community because Sigmund's ideas were what were considered RIGHT at the time. Decades later, people started to realize that Reich had a LOT of knowledge to contribute, and in some cases was even more right than Freud. Unfortunately, by this time, Reich had long since died. Now, there is an entire method of therapy based solely around Reich's texts called Gestalt therapy. It's a little out there, and it's a little different... but it DOES WORK.

Apply that to this conversation, and you'll see why I will NOT "chill" as long as I'm basically being accused of making things up just for the sake of being right.
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Old 01-29-04, 05:33 PM   #43 (permalink)
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Sorry, again no offense, no acusing you, not attacking you, just trying to make sense of this.
I think Marisa made it perfectly clear that she wasnt trying to attack or accuse you Ken..

As for the 'mystery breeders'. I have heard of a few people that use/used heated rooms. So i wont say you're lying about these people, but in all honesty, when you say they don't want their names being said or whatever, there is a bit of a foul odour, im sure you can understand that.
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Old 01-29-04, 05:50 PM   #44 (permalink)
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LMAO! Sucking up to Jeff? If anything, he is sucking up to me, because I stated my position on this before he did. And I HIGHLY doubt Jeff is sucking up to me, because who the hell am I? If that is your way of excusing things then so be it.

Now, I have lots to say. Seen as I already have this pasted, I will start here:

Quote:
I am fed up with bandwagon jumping, assumptions, and my lack of reptile KEEPING experience being used as a weapon when I try to say, "Hey, your way is great, but there are other ways that are proven too."
Jumping bandwagons, assumptions - you are fed up with this? Well you must be quite fed up with yourself then! Not only do you assume I am sucking up to Jeff, because he happens to maintain a name in this industry, but you endlessly make assumptions on your animals. You, CONTINUOUSLY, assume that your animals are perfect because A.) They are not dead yet, B.) They maintain a decent temperament and C.) Other people do it. Frankly, I see no proof that these methods are proven. I can live, and reproduce, by eating lettuce all of my life. Does that mean its ok? Or healthy for me to do so?

Now I know what you are going to say, 'prove that my position, providing a gradient, is successful and the way to go'. That is simple; the proof is in the pudding: Mother Nature. Do not give me any of that jumping the bandwagon BS, because I do not see where anyone is jumping the bandwagon.

Now as far as these people who keep their snakes without a gradient? All I have to say is that they obviously have something to hide if they do not want to share their husbandry methods. They OBVIOUSLY think there is something wrong with what they are doing. This hobby is a community; we learn and gain information off each other. We learn from each others mistakes, and success. I am curious as to why, if their methods are so successful, they are hiding their names and their findings on captive husbandry?

It is also unfortunate that you 'don't give a damn' what other people think. It is pretty hard to learn with such arrogance. I mean we all make mistakes, and we are all wrong at times. It seems to me that you don't like being wrong, and whatever you think is right. Talk about making assumptions.

Now once more, back to the Jeff thing. There is a huge difference between sucking up, and respecting someone for their success and knowledge. Believe it or not, I have learned a lot from Jeff, but his thoughts have nothing to do with my opinion on this topic.

Also, when you have some free time, I would like for you to share your knowledge on snake psychology. You seem to be able to read their minds and thoughts quite a bit, the whole herp community would kill for this capability!
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Old 01-29-04, 06:02 PM   #45 (permalink)
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If you look at it this way how would you like to be put in a room at 90 and not have somewhere to go and get cool. bet you would hate your life well its the same thing with the reptiles, when its to hot they go under ground to get cool and when they are to cool they go and find heat. That is why we offer the cool side and hot side. They can't just get in the water to cool off as you have heated it up with the heated room. I would rethink your husbandry Ken as it isn't good for the animals.
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