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Old 01-07-04, 01:53 AM   #76 (permalink)
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That is pretty scary that people don't realize they're joking. But folks are going to read into things whatever they like. Human nature.

In any case, if this *is* a case of child abuse why is everyone only concerned with what goes on in public? Does that mean that private child abuse is alright, just so long as we don't see it?

Either it is, or it isn't. Either you don't care, or you're very upset about how someone else is treating/raising their children altogether rather than one incident.

Personally, I don't think they abuse their children, thus I'm not going to presume to tell them how to raise them. Steve loves his father, clearly doesn't seem to have any resentments or feel that he was abused. *shrugs* Bob is fine. Bindi-Sue is fine. In mho.

We're obviously not going to convince each other, I've said my piece, and I'm gonna move on.
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Old 01-07-04, 11:17 AM   #77 (permalink)
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The public thing gets raised because wether abuse is occurring or not is subjective. I dont believe this should be construed as abuse but many people clearly disagree, so there is a risk in doing what he did publicly. They need to manage public perception to a certain extent.

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Old 01-07-04, 02:43 PM   #78 (permalink)
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It is so hard for people to look past Steve Irwin and their like for him because of his Shows which led to his public perception of being a great guy.

Many times I have seen it brought up its " Thier kids" or who gives us the right to interfer with how they or any person brings up their children.

I do not disagree that in some cases the laws go way overboard and take more rights from us as parents then should be allowed. Hell when i was in school you did wrong you got a quick introduction to the Board of education and im not talking about the Board where people sit on, im talking the one that meets where you sit. The Lawmakers took that tool of disapline from the teachers and now look at the schools and what occurs in them. I was never willing to meet the Board so i behaved and learned. Now we have kids who know teachers cant do anything really and it shows.
Many states will not allow us to spank our children they look at " Time out " as more effective. Hey I know how often i got my butt torn up for doing something wrong and sure did not make the same mistake again. Yes to much interferance by people is wrong and I whole heatedly agree to that.

However it is both are Moral and Ethical responciblity to set Safety laws to keep our children from dangers and to have them enforced. We require safty belts in cars. We require child safety seat in cars. there are a host of other things we have said yes kids do need to be protected from and create laws for thier safety.

Many Countries have Laws reguarding Wildlife and exacting laws on who / whom may inneract with these animals with age requirements and safety standards for the keeper, public and animals.

When a person violates these laws and endangers a child especially a well know figure on a media outlit We must look past our like and or dislike of the person and look at exactly what happened. Putting my feelings aside I saw a man in a crocadile paddock with an infant. That in itself is dangerous . Now the Man created a feeding situation which provokes the animal in to a feed responce. This just escalates the danger level. He then took the baby by the arms and bobbled it around the same paddock with no support for the infants head or neck. This is just plain and simple dangerous behavior to the child in a situation now where an animal is also already with a feeding responce active. Now combine that with the fact he did it for drama for the media. That is irresponcible and dangerous.

Luckily nothing serious happened this time! But I still need to look at the ramifications it could have had on our hobby and our ability to keep animals. I have said it before and will again. Mr Irwin is a role model for many up comming Herpers and his actions and stunts are mimiced by these new members to our community. These actions can have devestating effects on persons without his years of knowledge and training.

Before you reply think about all the replies and opinons on just this incodent alone and it had a good outcome. Now imagine had something gone very wrong and the baby been killed and what the out cry would have been. I know from seeing it in many states that one bad thing can lead to many new laws restricting our rights. Now Imagine what kind of calls politicians would be getting saying " WE DO NOT WANT PEOPLE IN OUR COMMUNITY KEEPING THOSE" look at what happend to Steve Irwin and he knew what he was doing. Public out cry does create laws without reason.

Yes he is in Australia but as such a popular and well telvised person in other countries he can have an impact. How many of you know the Laws in Australia pertaining to Crocs in captivity?

Below link is to the Australian laws pertaining to crocadiles. Unfortuantely my PDF converter is broken so you will need to view it in PDF. After opening got to " E" and read.

http://www.epa.qld.gov.au/publicati..._Queensland.pdf

Please read # 6 Demponstrations and handling

" C " STATES CLEARLY :Over-dramatisation and sensationalism of crocodile behaviour has a negative impact on community perceptions of crocodiles and is not to be undertaken.

"F" Goes on to state Park visitors should not be presented with examples of inappropriate behavior that might be copied by some people. Explain that the presenter is an experianced handler and that it would be unsafe for a member of the pyblic to copy the actions of the presenter
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Old 01-07-04, 03:27 PM   #79 (permalink)
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I agree with almost everything you've said. The question is not wether we as parents have the right to subject our children to dangerous situtations unnecessarily. The question is how much danger was his child in? I'm not qualified to make that call, and frankly most of us here are not better qualified to do so than Steve is. Does anyone here understand crocodile behavior better than Steve? The people likely to review the tape (child welfare workers) are even less qualified. Even Jack Hannah (sp?) on Larry King was *constantly" qualifying his opinion statements with things like "but Steve would know better than me", and such when talking about crocodile behavior. If this was a grizzly, I'd probably accept Jack's opinion over Steve's on the matter.

Yeah, I like Steve...many of us do, but my opinion stems from the fact that Steve is an acknowledged expert on crocodile behavior.

By the way, your link is broken, but the snippets you posted are not compelling IMO. It was not the crocodile's behavior that was being dramatised, and I dont know what sorts of disclaimers regarding Steve's experience were uttered before or after the clip that's been airing.

By the way, a few weeks ago on Killer Instinct, I saw Rob Bredl have some woman sit on the back of a HUGE crock. I dont recall the same uproar (or any mention at all) about putting others in danger.

Anyway, I see and respect your points, but I have a certain amount of faith in Steve's ability to assess the risk involved.

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Old 01-07-04, 03:43 PM   #80 (permalink)
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I love Steve and we all make mistakes, this was just bad judgement on his part and I think he realizes it. Thank God no one was hurt.
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Old 01-07-04, 03:58 PM   #81 (permalink)
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Sorry about the link its been messing up all day. try this one.

http://access.adobe.com/perl/convertPDF.pl

Just incase

Note: In the following information, the general terms crocodile/ s refers to all three species of
crocodilian covered in this document. Information about particular species will be stated as
such freshwater crocodile, estuarine crocodile, American alligators or alligators.


In this document, where reference is made to adequate experience, knowledge or
competency, this will be deemed adequate in the opinion of the chief executive of the
Department of Environment and Heritage, on advice of the executive of the Queensland
Wildlife Parks Association.


In this document, reference is made to the Division of Workplace Health and Safety Guide
For The Crocodile Industry. This was produced by the Department of Training and Industrial
Relations under provisions of the Workplace Health and Safety Act 1995 and is administered
by that department.


Husbandry
1.1 Keeper qualifications
A suitably qualified wildlife keeper must be nominated to be in charge of displays, and must
have a demonstrated knowledge of the Division of Workplace Health and Safety Guide For
The Crocodile Industry, and must have the following minimum experience and skills:


(For definitions of hatchling, juvenile, sub-adult and adult crocodiles, see Appendix 3 of the
Division of Workplace Health and Safety Guide For The Crocodile Industry.)
a) To be in charge of hatchlings or juvenile crocodiles, a wildlife keeper must
have:
i) at least 12 months' full-time work with a reptile display and a demonstrated
knowledge of heating and/ or basking requirements, and basic reptile
husbandry;
ii) a knowledge of the relationship between air and water temperatures and
crocodile digestion; and
iii) experience and competency in safe handling methods, minimising danger to
attendants and stress to animals.
b) To be in charge of sub-adult crocodiles, a wildlife keeper must have:
i) at least six months' full-time work with a crocodile display;
ii) experience and competency in heating and/ or basking requirements and
basic reptile husbandry;
iii) a knowledge of the relationship between air and water temperatures and
crocodile digestion;
iv) experience and competency in the capture and transportation procedures for
crocodiles, and a demonstrated knowledge of the safety zones specified in
the Division of Workplace Health and Safety Guide For The Crocodile
Industry.
c) To be in charge of adult crocodiles, a wildlife keeper must have:
i) at least 12 months' full-time work with a crocodile display;
ii) experience and competency in the heating and/ or basking requirements,
basic reptile husbandry and territoriality and aggression in adult crocodiles;
iii) a knowledge of the relationship between air and water temperatures and
crocodile digestion;
iv) a demonstrated ability to identify obese, emaciated or stressed specimens;
and
v) experience and competency in the capture and transportation procedures for
crocodiles, and a demonstrated knowledge of the safety zones specified in
the Division of Workplace Health and Safety Guide For The Crocodile
Industry. 35

6 Demonstrations and handling Wildlife parks play a valuable role in educating their visitors about crocodiles and their
habitat, especially the dangers associated with living in or visiting areas where crocodiles
occur.


a) During a demonstration for the public, a crocodile's natural behavior such as feeding
behavior, thermoregulation, locomotion, mating and nesting should be emphasised
at all times.
b) Hand-feeding of crocodiles of any size for educational shows should be undertaken
only by an accredited wildlife keeper as specified in the Division of Workplace Health
and Safety Guide For The Crocodile Industry.
c) Over-dramatisation and sensationalism of crocodile behaviour has a negative impact
on community perceptions of crocodiles and is not to be undertaken.
d) Basic ecological and biological information is necessary to present an accurate
picture of a crocodile's life history and how it interacts with its environment.
e) Information about the risks associated with living in or visiting a crocodile habitat is
essential to help visitors behave safely.
f) Park visitors should not be presented with examples of inappropriate behaviour that
might be copied by some people. Explain that the presenter is an experienced
handler and that it would be unsafe for a member of the public to copy the actions of
the presenter.
g) Only crocodiles under 1.2m in total length should be used in mobile displays. The
crocodile must at all times be under the supervision of an experienced crocodile
keeper and, when not being used in a demonstration, must be returned to its display
or transport box.
h) At no time can a park visitor be granted access to a crocodile enclosure, or be
permitted to feed a crocodile over a fence. 42
42 Page 43 44
i) Entry to crocodile exhibits by authorised people other than keepers is permitted,
provided the following conditions are observed:
i) In the opinion of the employer, the risk of crocodile attack has been
minimised;
ii) The person is accompanied at all times by a guard;
iii) The person has been instructed in relevant safety issues and has indicated
that the or she understands the instructions and agrees to conform to all safety
directions given by the employer or company representative while in the
enclosure; and
iv) Entry follows all procedures stated in the Division of Workplace Health and
Safety G uide For The Crocodile Industry.


7 Health and safety Refer to the Division of Workplace Health and Safety Guide For The Crocodile Industry.


8 Provisions of other Acts The above exhibit standards of the QWPA are to be taken as the recommended minimum
standards for wildlife parks to achieve, and are not in derogation of the provisions of other
relevant Acts and Regulations including the Nature Conservation Act and Workplace Health
and Safety Act. 43
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Old 01-07-04, 04:58 PM   #82 (permalink)
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I am sorry but thoughts like this are the exact reason the world today is slowly wrapping itself in protective knee pads and making sure anything fun is outlawed:

"In any case, if this *is* a case of child abuse"

How in the world could this even be CLOSE to child abuse? Are you serious here? Do you even know what REAL child abuse is? Have you ever talked to children who have been mentally, or sexually abused? Frankly they would LOVE to go feed crocs at Steves park. That's not abuse. That's an opportunity. And the fact you are calling THAT abuse is really offensive considering some children have gone through REAL abuse.

I am glad you guys aren't my parents. I wouldn't want to grow up in a padded bubble.

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Old 01-07-04, 06:03 PM   #83 (permalink)
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The problem that people are having with this thread is the confusion of "child abuse" with "parental negligence". I don't think that Steve was doing either one. As has been said again and again the man knows what he's doing with crocs, more specifically this one croc who has been in his zoo for some length of time. If it was a freshly acquired croc there would be a problem, but it wasn't so there isn't IMO

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