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Old 11-05-03, 06:03 PM   #16 (permalink)
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This is true, JonD's remark was setting this thread up for disaster! Thess topics should not be discussed! We all know where it ends up cause there is no right or wrong answere!
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Old 11-05-03, 06:10 PM   #17 (permalink)
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I agree with Mouse completely. What makes me curious is why would someone who does not care to talk about Politics or religions click on the fourms that are stated what they are such as the one towards Chuck. What also boggles my mind is people who dont care to talk about it actually posting to the fourm. Complaining is easy to do, Not clicking is even easier..
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Old 11-05-03, 06:15 PM   #18 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by T.O-SK8TER
This is true, JonD's remark was setting this thread up for disaster! Thess topics should not be discussed! We all know where it ends up cause there is no right or wrong answere!
What I was doing was stating my view, of course people will get upset over it. That was my whole point. I am not trying to annoy people, just show how something said can be understood differently by different people. This topic is ingrained too deeply in people to have a light discussion about it.
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Old 11-05-03, 06:17 PM   #19 (permalink)
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The other thing is some people seem to assume that these threads can be ignored by those who dont like them and that's that, they won't bother anyone. But the cause more work for Jeff and all the mods. Its not like o.k. ignore it if you dont like it and thats that...its another thread that the mods have to watch close in case someone goes nuts or a thread gets out of hand. Why should Mods from a reptile site have to spend their time doing that when its not even reptile related?

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Old 11-05-03, 06:19 PM   #20 (permalink)
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Every forum I have ever participated in or run myself has a "No politics or religion" clause.

The reason for it is people have beliefs. Nothing anyone says or does is going to change a persons religious or political beliefs and most people will react badly to having those beliefs challenged or belittled.

People will say things via the anonymity of the internet that they would never say to someone's face. That makes the Trolls much braver and more apt to be offensive. There are a lot of topics that skirt the line. But at the end of the day this is a forum for discussing Herp and herp related stuff. If you want do discuss religion or politics i'm certain there are many other places you can do that.
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Old 11-05-03, 06:24 PM   #21 (permalink)
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Corey,

The problem with what you're saying is that you've arbitrarily decided that one kind of off topic debate is ok and another isn't. Again, instead of having all these complicated restrictions on topics why not just restrict insults and attacks? I have seen just as many (probably more actually) personal attacks in threads that are directly related to the herp keeping as I have seen in ones that are off topic and in the end isn't that what all the rules are there to stop? Sure people come here to learn about, buy, sell and trade herps only but this General Discussion area is more than that. It's a place where members can socialize with eachother. We know we all have one thing in common so it's natural to see what else we agree on and also what we don't. I want to point out that those who are only interested in strictly herp related topics have the whole remainder of the site to look at, no one is forcing anyone to read off topic posts or threads so why spoil it for the rest of us? If debate or off topic discussion is to be discouraged then what is the sense in even have a General Discussion area?
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Old 11-05-03, 06:28 PM   #22 (permalink)
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I think it was being pointed out that just these topics should not be discussed!
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Old 11-05-03, 06:43 PM   #23 (permalink)
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T.O,

I have already illustrated why these subjects are impossible to avoid, read the original post again. People have strong beliefs about herp related topics also and it is therefore possible that some will get too emotional and stray from debate into insults, haven't we all witnessed that? Isn't it this behaviour that the operators are trying to prevent with these rules?

Marisa,

Isn't it more work for the mods to try to decide when something is a political discussion and when it isn't than to simply say that no personal attacks are allowed, anywhere, in any thread, on any topic? The way I see it is General Discussion, that is non-herp discussion must simply be banned altogether or you have to have clear rules about conduct within all the threads without making a distinction between topics.
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Old 11-05-03, 06:52 PM   #24 (permalink)
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Mouse,

The fact of the matter is that the topic of religion really does offend some people. This off topic forum's examples( favorite cars or music, or oh, I just saw two squirels doin' it on my neighbours fence) Music, cars and animals getting busy really don't offend a large group of people and nobody would disagree if I like Ferrari's. But, in one of my statements yes people disagreed with me and got angry because it didn't fit their values.
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Old 11-05-03, 07:07 PM   #25 (permalink)
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The problem is, Jon, that as I showed earlier, you cannot isolate politics or religion as subjects. They are things that bleed into any and all other topics. People disagree on all sorts of subjects, strongly, but it isn't disagreement that insults and offends, it's personal attacks that do. I know people that are religious and others that aren't, both types are willing to discuss their point of view so long as they are not attacked for how they feel. Guys like Chuck for example have to defend their minority opinion but that doesn't mean he has the right to insult them nor they him. We already have a debate going here with people on both sides, neither side is insulting the other and that's good conversation. This conversation isn't a strictly political or religious one but it is lively enough that someone could get carried away and cross the line into the realm of insults. The rest of us can't control that so instead of making a new rule that says we can't discuss the site's rules why not just say anything goes but personal attacks? What is the point of discussion if no one can disagree or say contraversial things?
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Old 11-05-03, 07:19 PM   #26 (permalink)
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Well the thing is unless you are situated within a group, be it online or other place, that have the same beliefs as your self, discussion is futile. Everyone's beliefs are NOT going to be changed in a discussion. People want to get their point and views across. Discussion involves active listening and response. When religion is discussed, all parties involved respond, but don't listen unless they have similar views.
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Old 11-05-03, 07:32 PM   #27 (permalink)
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Here is the rules as they will be defined! Part of the Job as an administrator, or a Moderator is to deem what is suitable and what is not. Yes...its alot of work...i know..ive been here since the sites inception. As MouseKilla noted, alot of things can and will cross the line between politics and religon. Part of my job is to decide when its crossed the line to far. We as mods have been given the ability to decide what stays and what goes based on our definition of what is viewable, allowable, family oriented and generally in the best interest of the visitors to the site. We are not perfect...sometimes we make bad calls. Fortunately for us we have an admin team that understands that ppl make mistakes. I myself have made huge mistakes during the time this site has been up and running and ive used them to correct myself in future handling of problems.

As Corey pointed out, sometimes topics are let to slide as we deem them okay for the viewing public. The hard part of this job is sometimes deciding what is debate and what is an all out argument. Often its easier to just step in and say tone it down. But sometimes this doesnt work so we are forced to close the thread. I personally hate having to police anything, and having to move something that i think is unsuitable is sometimes an extremely hard decision for me. Often, behind the scenes in parts of the site that the rest of you cannot see, we as mods discuss and decide together. From there we take action.

We once thought about being a 100% herp only general room. But just like the chat room, we realized that this is a community of ppl who want to say happy birthday. Who want to be friends, who want to show off their new car...and yes, some want to relay their beliefs and political views. I guess before i ramble too long...my point is this. You can never 100% stray away from the two topics. But we can as a community try our best to get along first off...and secondly understand that sometimes mods will make rules that you wont like...just like life. I think what should be done instead of trying to rally the entire site to comment, is to simply ask one of us why something got closed or moved. I myself am available in the chat room...and or i check my emails regularily. I cannot speak for other mods 100% of the time, but i will try my best to give you a reason or definition as to why something was done...hope this makes sense.

As always, if anyone would like to contact me for this or any other questions regarding the site, please feel free to email me, Shane@ssnakess.com. I will reply as soon as i can
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Old 11-05-03, 07:36 PM   #28 (permalink)
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The bottom line is the owner of the site can make up whatever rules they like.

The obviously don't want to have to get involved with religious or political debates so it's against the rules to discuss. While I haven't gone over the usage agreement point by point i'm sure harrassing, threatening and demeaning comments are not allowed either. It's their sandbox, we just get to play here.

I do sort of agree that it's impossible to completely eliminate ANY political or religious talk of any kind, but that's not the point either. There are instances where politics could have a direct effect on our primary focus, herps. In that case i'm sure discussing the political aspect as it pertains to herps would be fine. But general political discussions are not. Why are you so hung up on wanting to talk about politics and religion on a Herp forum anyhow? That's the part I don't get.
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Old 11-05-03, 07:36 PM   #29 (permalink)
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I was banned yesterday for discussing religion. The debate arose out of a thread were a young guy asked how snakes were demonized. The evolutionists and Christ bashers were given free reign to say what they wanted, but when I defended Christianity, immediately I was told we do not discuss this here. Why were the Christ bashers not told that before I posted? I do not know how the policy is written, but a “a not religious discussion” policy is not enforced. What is enforced is a no “pro Christian discussion.” I would like to point out that I have never started a religious thread, and the only time I have posted in them is to defend my beliefs when they are bashed by others. If there was truly a “no religious discussion” rule, then I would never have to defend my beliefs, and I would not be banned now. Thanks ------------Chuck (chuck@SCReptiles.com)

Correction....you were banned for your constant harassment of others on this site and your unwillingness to let a topic or argument die even after you had been warned by either the admin or moderators on this site. You have be warned several times and yet still can't seem to understand why you have been removed. Chuck, i think your a very smart individual. Your passion for herps shows and i think someone with your knowledge on the subject is a great asset. However your attitude for not obeying the rules of the site have made you a constant thorn in the side of the moderation staff. In the future i hope your able to one day come to a peace within yourself and find that its not necessary to bash or bother or intice others. Once you realize this, i think you'll be a greater person. Shane.
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Old 11-05-03, 07:37 PM   #30 (permalink)
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Who cares if anyone changes their minds as a result of an adult, rational discussion? And if you truly believed that discussion was pointless then why have you posted to this thread several times? I can say that I have personally changed my mind about a couple of things as a result of discussions on this site. The views of others have enriched the ones I already had just as other's knowledge of snakes has enriched what I already knew about them. Discussion and arguement is how we learn things, only the truly closed minded will only express what they think and not acknowledge the thoughts of others. But we aren't talking about the usefullness of debate, we're talking about whether certain topics must be forbidden from being discussed. I'm saying it isn't necessary, in fact it's impossible to actually do this and what is truly needed is a ban on personal attacks not on debate itself.
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