border
sSNAKESs : Reptile Forum
 

Go Back   sSNAKESs : Reptile Forum > Community Forums > General Discussion

Notices

Closed Thread
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 10-25-03, 07:34 AM   #1 (permalink)
Member
 
Lisa's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun-2002
Location: Trenton
Posts: 6,075
Send a message via ICQ to Lisa Send a message via MSN to Lisa Send a message via Yahoo to Lisa
Poisonous or Venomous?

I often see the media using posionous and venomous interchangably and some people get upset over which one is used so I thought I'd open a can of worms and say that either is correct. Here are a couple dictionary entries, both which define venom as a poison. Also we have "poison dart frogs", not "venomous dart frogs" yet we don't go around drinking the frogs secretions for them to be administered. (At least I don't).
Heck the dictionary tells you to look at poison as well.

A) ven·om n.
A poisonous secretion of an animal, such as a snake, spider, or scorpion, usually transmitted by a bite or sting.
A poison.
Malice; spite: “They dislike making their just criticism of a useful and earnest man an excuse for a general discharge of venom from small-minded opponents” (W.E.B. DuBois).


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
[Middle English venim, from Old French, from Vulgar Latin *venmen, from Latin vennum, poison. See wen-1 in Indo-European Roots.]


B) venom

\Ven"om\, n. [OE. venim, OF. venim, F. venin, L. veneum. Cf. Venenate.] 1. Matter fatal or injurious to life; poison; particularly, the poisonous, the poisonous matter which certain animals, such as serpents, scorpions, bees, etc., secrete in a state of health, and communicate by thing or stinging.

Or hurtful worm with cankered venom bites. --Milton.

2. Spite; malice; malignity; evil quality. Chaucer. ``The venom of such looks.'' --Shak.

Syn: Venom; virus; bane. See Poison.
__________________
Neo-Slither (Snake fanatic mailing list) http://<br /> http://groups.yahoo.c...p/Neo-Slither/

May you live in interesting times.
Lisa is offline  
Login to remove ads
Old 10-25-03, 08:22 AM   #2 (permalink)
Member
 
JoeBradley's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun-2003
Location: Ringgold, GA
Age: 41
Posts: 173
Send a message via AIM to JoeBradley Send a message via Yahoo to JoeBradley
Hey, I posted this exact post in the venomous forum about a month ago. I agree with you. I think they are totally interchangeable and niether one is more correct than the other. I have even heard the croc hunter use the term non-poisonous.
__________________
1.0 Bearded Dragon, 0.0.1 Canebrake, 0.0.2 sulcatas, 0.2 Eastern Diamondback
JoeBradley is offline  
Old 10-25-03, 08:32 AM   #3 (permalink)
Member
 
Lisa's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun-2002
Location: Trenton
Posts: 6,075
Send a message via ICQ to Lisa Send a message via MSN to Lisa Send a message via Yahoo to Lisa
I missed that post. I'll have to go look for it.
__________________
Neo-Slither (Snake fanatic mailing list) http://<br /> http://groups.yahoo.c...p/Neo-Slither/

May you live in interesting times.
Lisa is offline  
Old 10-25-03, 09:17 AM   #4 (permalink)
Yve
Member
 
Yve's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb-2002
Location: Ontario
Posts: 1,018
i tend to differ in opinion. It states that the venom is something that is transmitted by bite or sting...which means it affects the injured, intravenously so to speak. Whereas, poison, is secreted from an animals body and will affect you by touching or swallowing it.

venom is derived from venous which means: of veins

In essence, yes, venom is poison, in terms of it being toxic to the body. But I think the difference is in the way it is administered.
__________________
YVE~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~:-
Yve is offline  
Old 10-25-03, 09:34 AM   #5 (permalink)
Member
 
JoeBradley's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun-2003
Location: Ringgold, GA
Age: 41
Posts: 173
Send a message via AIM to JoeBradley Send a message via Yahoo to JoeBradley
Quote:
These definitions came from the Merriam-Webster dictionary. This is the standard dictionary used by schools and colleges. If these definitions are accurate why does everyone have such a problem with the term “poisonous snake”? These words can be interchanged without losing any meaning.

VENOM: poisonous matter normally secreted by some animals (as snakes, scorpions, or bees) and transmitted to prey or an enemy chiefly by biting or stinging; broadly : material that is poisonous

VENOMOUS: 1 : full of venom : as a : POISONOUS, ENVENOMED b : NOXIOUS, PERNICIOUS c : SPITEFUL, MALEVOLENT
2 : having a venom-producing gland and able to inflict a poisoned wound


POISONOUS: 1 : having the properties or effects of poison : VENOMOUS
2 : DESTRUCTIVE, HARMFUL
3 : SPITEFUL, MALICIOUS


POISON: 1 a : a substance that through its chemical action usually kills, injures, or impairs an organism b (1) : something destructive or harmful (2) : an object of aversion or abhorrence
2 : a substance that inhibits the activity of another substance or the course of a reaction or process
Here are the definitions from Meriam Webster. I think it is all semantics. I let people use whatever they want. I use venomous because it is more widely accepted in the hot society.
__________________
1.0 Bearded Dragon, 0.0.1 Canebrake, 0.0.2 sulcatas, 0.2 Eastern Diamondback
JoeBradley is offline  
Login to remove ads
Old 10-25-03, 09:47 AM   #6 (permalink)
Yve
Member
 
Yve's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb-2002
Location: Ontario
Posts: 1,018
venom is poisonous, that much is understood but I think it is more appropriate to use the word "venomous" when associated with snakes because of the way it is administered. the dictionary does not say that poison is administered with biting or stinging. Therefore, poison cannot be venom. If it were than the bleach under my sink would be considered venomous. Poison is just a general term for something that can harm you. I'm not 100% on this, but I don't think the cane toad has ever been considered 'venomous'. It is 'poisonous' because of the way its toxins are administered.
__________________
YVE~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~:-
Yve is offline  
Old 10-25-03, 10:02 AM   #7 (permalink)
Member
 
JoeBradley's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun-2003
Location: Ringgold, GA
Age: 41
Posts: 173
Send a message via AIM to JoeBradley Send a message via Yahoo to JoeBradley
That seems to be the most accepted view on this topic. Works for me.
__________________
1.0 Bearded Dragon, 0.0.1 Canebrake, 0.0.2 sulcatas, 0.2 Eastern Diamondback
JoeBradley is offline  
Old 10-25-03, 10:13 AM   #8 (permalink)
Member
 
Jeff_Favelle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar-2002
Location: BC
Posts: 9,740
Send a message via AIM to Jeff_Favelle Send a message via MSN to Jeff_Favelle Send a message via Yahoo to Jeff_Favelle
...

Venom is injected, poison is ingested.
__________________
www.jefffavelle.com
Jeff_Favelle is offline  
Old 10-25-03, 12:00 PM   #9 (permalink)
Member
 
Lisa's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun-2002
Location: Trenton
Posts: 6,075
Send a message via ICQ to Lisa Send a message via MSN to Lisa Send a message via Yahoo to Lisa
I don't think the administration method is much of a distinction, poison from a poison dart frog is administered via a puncture wound, like a bite or scratch. Leathal injection is deffinetly not venom yet it is administered via a puncture wound as well. I don't know of any studies of venom ingestion, but toad venom is known to be potent when injested (ever lick a toad?).

The only difference I can see is venom is secreted via animals and poisonous via plants how ever when researching this I saw as many references to venomous plants as I did poisonous animals.

As for the origin of venom from venous, i haven't seen that in the word history (see above) "Middle English venim, from Old French, from Vulgar Latin *venmen, from Latin vennum, poison." Now the english language evolves (otherwise we wouldn't be using punctuation, and words like computer and grok wouldn't exist) and is always changing. Anyone remember when bad was good?
__________________
Neo-Slither (Snake fanatic mailing list) http://<br /> http://groups.yahoo.c...p/Neo-Slither/

May you live in interesting times.
Lisa is offline  
Old 10-25-03, 12:52 PM   #10 (permalink)
reverendsterlin
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
last I checked Meriam Webster and most other dictionaries were not scientific. You ask a scientific question and expect an answer based on common usage. Try a biology or evolutionary biology textbook or research papers if you don't want the truth from experts that posted the last time this question was asked and thoroughly explained.
 
Login to remove ads
Old 10-25-03, 01:00 PM   #11 (permalink)
Member
 
JoeBradley's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun-2003
Location: Ringgold, GA
Age: 41
Posts: 173
Send a message via AIM to JoeBradley Send a message via Yahoo to JoeBradley
Quote:
Try a biology or evolutionary biology textbook or research papers if you don't want the truth from experts that posted the last time this question was asked and thoroughly explained.
First: Maybe she did not see the first post. I have seen many questions posted on this site multiple times. This is a legitimate question.

Second: Your everyday layperson and news anchor does not read biology books. Poisonous has been taught to us as small children and it is going to carry over into your adult life.
The term venomous did not come into use until recently. I have seen biology books written by great reptile people in the earlier years of herpetology using the term Poisonous and Poison. I even have a Croc hunter show on tape where he uses the term.

If you want the truth: poisonous is a very acceptable word for a layperson to use.
__________________
1.0 Bearded Dragon, 0.0.1 Canebrake, 0.0.2 sulcatas, 0.2 Eastern Diamondback
JoeBradley is offline  
Old 10-25-03, 01:27 PM   #12 (permalink)
reverendsterlin
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
for the first, the comment was more directed to you, you had posted been responded to and did not pass on the information you had been provided.

for the second, I would not consider her question from a layperson wanting the standard layperson response. I guided her to more suitable books that would provide more technical answers should she want to research, as I see it she asked a scientific question. Years ago this industry had all sorts of 'laypersons' as the only ones even trying to provide information and there is much wrong information in them, so what was done or said years ago by what ever 'experts' at the time doesn't usually apply here. If a person wants to interchange poisonous and venomous it won't bother me, you had already told her of the other thread so I didn't need to repeat that. Provide whatever level of response you wish to a question Joe, but don't criticize mine.
 
Old 10-25-03, 01:32 PM   #13 (permalink)
Yve
Member
 
Yve's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb-2002
Location: Ontario
Posts: 1,018
Lisa, how does a poisonous dart frog administer the wound? I wasn't quite clear on your description. Do you mean that if the poison touches an open wound it will infect your blood stream by that means? From what I've read and heard, the consensus is, that if it is injected from an animal it is called venom(which, ofcoarse, is poisonous). The definition posted does describe venom as poison but poison is not described as venom in the dictionary (Oxford English). Even synonymous words don't always mean "exactly" the same thing. Some apply more to certain situations then others and that is how I see it in this case.
The origin of the word venom is not venous, but they share the same stem and thus are derived from the same origin.

vena -ae f. [a blood-vessel , vein, artery; a water-course; a vein of metal; a vein of talent, disposition, natural inclination].
venenifer -fera -ferum [poisonous].

As for toad venom, perhaps any poison coming from an animal or living thing is considered venom. Looking at the origin it doesn't seem to make sense though. Perhaps its just the simple fact that many people use these two synonymous words interchangeably without knowing their origins. The origin is in fact, the root of the definition.
__________________
YVE~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~:-
Yve is offline  
Old 10-25-03, 01:43 PM   #14 (permalink)
Member
 
JoeBradley's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun-2003
Location: Ringgold, GA
Age: 41
Posts: 173
Send a message via AIM to JoeBradley Send a message via Yahoo to JoeBradley
Quote:
for the first, the comment was more directed to you, you had posted been responded to and did not pass on the information you had been provided.
What comment was directed to me?
I told her I agreed with her and gave her the info that I used in my forum.

Quote:
That seems to be the most accepted view on this topic. Works for me.
I also gave this response to the post by YVE. YVE had already given her the answer I received so I saw no need to repeat it. My opinion on this issue has not changed since my post on the topic. I have not given any new opinions or tried to pursued anyone differently. I even said that YVE's explanation worked for me.

Quote:
for the second, I would not consider her question from a layperson wanting the standard layperson response.
She specifically said the media.

Quote:
Provide whatever level of response you wish to a question Joe, but don't criticize mine.
You criticized me.
__________________
1.0 Bearded Dragon, 0.0.1 Canebrake, 0.0.2 sulcatas, 0.2 Eastern Diamondback
JoeBradley is offline  
Old 10-25-03, 02:16 PM   #15 (permalink)
Member
 
SCReptiles's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun-2003
Location: Chattanooga, TN
Age: 45
Posts: 1,562
Please over look Joe, the rest of SCR knows the difference between poisonous and venomous.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg master_tang_speaking_joe.jpg (22.0 KB, 68 views)
__________________
www.SCReptiles.com 2.2 Crotalus adamanteus. 2.2 Crotalus h. atricaudatus. 2.2 Crotalus h. horridus. 1.1 Agkistrodon p. piscivorus. 1.1 Agkistrodon c. contortrix. 1.1 Agkistrodon c. mokasen. 1.1 Agkistrodon c. laticinctus. 1.1 Agkistrodon c. pictigaster. Agkistrodon c. phaeogaster. 1.2 Sistrurus miliarius barbouri. 1.1 Micrurus fulvius. 0.0.1 Micrurus fulvius tenere

Last edited by SCReptiles; 10-25-03 at 03:12 PM..
SCReptiles is offline  
Login to remove ads
Closed Thread

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On




All times are GMT -6. The time now is 02:52 PM.

Powered by vBulletin®
©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © 2002-17, Hobby Solutions Inc.

right

SEO by vBSEO 3.1.0