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Old 10-17-03, 06:43 PM   #31 (permalink)
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So those places all consider animals to be equal to people? To what extent? Do you have to pay for expensive animal organ transplants? Can animals run for mayor in those places?
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Old 10-17-03, 07:06 PM   #32 (permalink)
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Wow I hate people.

Give me a day or two to even comprehend the fact that people want animals to have equal rights with children.

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Old 10-17-03, 07:39 PM   #33 (permalink)
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So those places all consider animals to be equal to people? To what extent? Do you have to pay for expensive animal organ transplants? Can animals run for mayor in those places?
Those are where the term has been adopted into the laws. Now the door is open. As I said before, they will try anything to drastic until they have implimented the cahnge in many more places. Then they can test the waters and keep building on it. This is not an immediate devestation for pet owners, it is the beginning. Which is the best place to stop it.
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Old 10-18-03, 03:09 PM   #34 (permalink)
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Great post..!!!! Take a look and listen Canadians ...Just because this outrage is in the States(US) doesn't mean that it will not happen here in the near future...Our political lobbyists will jump on the band wagon real quick if this issue passes in most US states...remember liberal issues like this pass very quick here because Canadian governing systems don't have the safe guards/red tape that the US systems have....the hardest thing to remove in the Canadian system is a policy already passed....BWSmith is RIGHT it could "ring disaster" for the Reptile community in both our countries if this proposal goes through
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Old 10-19-03, 08:32 AM   #35 (permalink)
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Cool More Dependents! Can I claim them on my tax return? j/k.
I wonder how many of those locations have a "Purina (whatever chow) Plant" that employs 3,500 locals? Economics will dictate the weight that the term "Guardian" will carry. Take a look at how many folks are employed in the pet industry(all of it). I believe that if any of the major players preceived this as a threat, you would see lobbyist coming outta the woodwork left and right. Remember, changes at the "user" end effect profits at the supplier end and a multi-million dollar industry is not going to sit idly by and watch money being taken away from them. A perfect example is the Florida Citrus Canker Erradication Program with the state blatantly violating idividual's rights for a profit making/tax paying industry.

I am a hobbyist who occasionally sells offspring to support my addiction. I do not depend on reptile sales to earn a living. I have to step back once in a while to remind myself that some folks do depend on reptile sales as the sole source of income. Let's take a look at why the "enemy" is trying so hard to oppose what we see as a given right. I, as a hobbyist have certain preconsieved ideas about breeding and husbantry. I give my females a year off after birth prior to breeding again. You will never see a dirty cage and the limits to what I will spend on vet care have never been tested. For those of you who bring up the price of the animal, that is a non-issue in my book. If you are not willing to take proper care of an animal-THEN DON"T OWN ANY!! Although, I don't have first hand knowledge of folks that breed reptiles for a living, I have a pretty good suspicion that quite a few of them consider the animals as "disposable", will breed them as often as possible, will do the minimal amount of "maintainence" and will spend very little on health care. This type of breeder is just like those "Puppy Mills" that we all dispise and I think this is the reason the "enemy" feel the way they do. We may not want to admit it, but I think a lot of us can sympathise with the "enemy" in this aspect of their concern.

Just my $.02
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Old 10-19-03, 10:52 AM   #36 (permalink)
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I have not read the full thread, so excuse me if this has allready been brought up (I dont like wasting time reading back and forth bickering) anyway, what about feeders? Are they considered pets? and therefore our pets would be charged with murder when eating thier meals?
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Old 10-19-03, 11:06 AM   #37 (permalink)
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Feeders. I forgot to mention that. THis is from another proposed bill in Rhode Island. Luckily this one has been held over until 2004. But it is not dead yet.

Quote:
extends the definition of animal abuse to include such things as using feeder animals (i.e. feeder fish, crickets, mice, etc.).Persons in violation of the law would lose ownership of all
animals, and be prohibited from owning animals in the future for at least five years.
Scary. Glad I dont live in RI. Of course this one is abit too blatent and I dont think it will pass. But helping to make sure it doesn't can't hurt.
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Old 10-19-03, 12:12 PM   #38 (permalink)
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You're right about that one, it'll never fly. The implications to industry are too huge for this to catch on. You'll notice though that these laws and proposed laws are at the municipal level (in other words they are "city" laws). I don't know about in the States but up here in the Great White the cities can only pass by-laws that wield little force. Most of us that live in cities and have boids are in fact ignoring by-laws, not always but usually. If you get caught, which only happens if you are stupid, you could get fined and told you have to get rid of the animals. The number of ways to get around these weak by-laws are too many to count. I say catch me if you can, I'll pretend to comply and be back at it again in no time. The police don't care and nobody else will either if they don't know what's in your house. I don't like that we're collectively being attacked legally and we should take these self-proclaimed animal advocates on as they come but let's not exaggerate their influence. There is, after all, no money in animal rights and buckets of it in the pet/livestock/farming/meat/feed industries. This is the one time when the fact that money talks will be a benefit. That's a fact of life that usually hurts the average guy (how about those HMOs and private electricity down there?) but in this case it's going to work for us, that's why I'm not worried.
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Old 10-19-03, 12:31 PM   #39 (permalink)
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I think some of you folks are getting a little too worked up over this. Has anyone had any negative first hand experience with having dependants instead of pets? Not that I've heard. The truth of the matter is, no one cares. The law makers agree to change terms as a matter of being politically correct. The do not do it so you can be charged with murder for flushing a gold fish. they do it cuzz it sounds like a good idea. They don't really think about how it could be interpretted.

A dog mauls a person , now since the owner is 'a caretaker' or 'gaurdian' of the dog, does that mean the dog is his dependant like a child would be? Does that mean a dog gets treated like a person and goes to trial? No. The dog, despite being a dependant, is still an ANIMAL. It will be put down. Killed, not put on death row for five years for appeal after appeal. It would be killeed on the spot. People are on the top of nature' hierarchy. Dogs cats snakes frogs and tortoises will never be treated like people. It does not matter what you call them. Sorry folks, I don't buy it. Just my opinion, you can have yours.

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Old 10-19-03, 12:39 PM   #40 (permalink)
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Great to know whats goin on, but it won't happen.
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Old 10-19-03, 01:05 PM   #41 (permalink)
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So in San Francisco, if I kill a rat, I get charged with premditated murder 1 and spend the next 20 years in prison, or maybe get parole after 15?

WhileI see how this *could* be a realistic threat, I also think that everyone is getting a little worked up over it. I don't think that it will ever be considered child abuse if I lock a cat in a room overnight so it learns to use the litter box. That's just silly. I also don't think that it'll ever be murder 1 if I put down a dog that is on its death bed and suffering, instead of paying 1000s to keep it alive day after day.

Yes, some resistance is necessary to stop these people from gaining any ground... but I don't think its a realistic threat.

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Old 10-19-03, 01:08 PM   #42 (permalink)
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MouseKilla,
I won't even get into skirting the laws like that.

Nic,
Quote:
Has anyone had any negative first hand experience with having dependants instead of pets?
This has already been addressed here:
Quote:
Those are where the term has been adopted into the laws. Now the door is open. As I said before, they will try anything to drastic until they have implimented the cahnge in many more places. Then they can test the waters and keep building on it. This is not an immediate devestation for pet owners, it is the beginning.
Quote:
The do not do it so you can be charged with murder for flushing a gold fish. they do it cuzz it sounds like a good idea. They don't really think about how it could be interpretted.
Thank you. That is exactly why it is so dangerous. Ignorance to the possible future implications.

Quote:
People are on the top of nature' hierarchy. Dogs cats snakes frogs and tortoises will never be treated like people.
The question was never will they be treated as people. It is an issue of a change in the responibilities and liabilities of the owner. At this point we can only imagine and speculate. But the evidence is there of intent and this gives them means. Should we wait until the first lawsuit goes through? Wait until they have legal precedence? Or strike now at each head of the leviathon. Remember, it is easier to break the egg than slay the dragon.
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Old 10-19-03, 02:38 PM   #43 (permalink)
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This most important thread is turning into a silly argument! Pleas stop! all youíre doing is giving them ammunitions to assist there fight. Remember we are being watched! Perhaps some of you shod get there heads out of the sand, and have a look around.
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Old 10-19-03, 05:11 PM   #44 (permalink)
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Old 10-19-03, 06:21 PM   #45 (permalink)
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I'm glad to see that one or two others have taken a more realistic view of the significance that some language changes in some flimsy municipal by-laws might have. The answer is ZERO. If there was any realistic chance or even a hope in hell that this could catch on let alone escalate then I might worry, a little, but this is strictly a hypothetical conversation. For a change big business is on the same side of a debate as I am so I'll let them worry about this, them and any of you that want to waste your time fighting a ghost. Instead I'll be looking out for space aliens, flocks of poison birds and communists, all of which are bigger, more imminent threats to my lifestyle. The city can pass all the bylaws they like and I'll still do what I do, come and get me. Same goes for any of the Hollywood animal advocate losers, I paid thousands of dollars for animals, I have receipts, I own them, I'll keep them or skin them and eat them if I like.
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