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Old 10-17-03, 01:04 PM   #16 (permalink)
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BW,

You are consistently using the terms "member of the family" so I have to assume you got them from somewhere. "Member of the family" has no legal force in itself. If they were to change "pet" to "person" then we'd have a problem. We all have legal duties toward other people, these don't exist for animals as long as you call them anything else. This shift in language is not something that gives human rights to non-humans automatically. If that were the goal then the terms wouldn't be so ambiguous, "member of the family" doesn't mean "person" and in fact it doesn't mean much of anything at all, as I said, in or of itself. Animals don't have the same rights as people, not even in Rhode Island. I would be opposed to any law that gives animals the same rights as people but I don't think that is the effect of these changes in terminology. Remember we're talking about a country that doesn't protect it's own people from exploitation effectively through legislation, it will be a hell of a long time before anyone can do that for animals. It's a scary thought but it's a long way off.
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Old 10-17-03, 01:19 PM   #17 (permalink)
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If they were to change "pet" to "person" then we'd have a problem
But they are changing the term "Owner" to "Guardian". Which means you would have the same legal obligations that you would if you were the guadian to a child.

Let's reverse it. Let's change all the words "Gaurdian" to "owner". When you are a child's "Owner", you culd legaly buy sell and trade children. The term "Owner" has the explicit meaning of owning property.

The law is all about terminology. It may not be in the immediate future, but if we don't stop it now, then it WILL be in the future. Remember, they have clearly stated their agenda. This is a means to an end. They have learned that in order to be sucessful, it is many small victories, not trying to win a war at once.

And if you could make a reply without the America bashing, it would be nice. I keep up with Canadian legislation as well. If you think you are safe, do some research on what is pending there.
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Old 10-17-03, 01:23 PM   #18 (permalink)
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what a bunch of losers, did you read their site, people like that are crazy, they are probably rallying for GOD to be taken out of the pledge of allegence. nice bw i appreciate the th
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Old 10-17-03, 01:40 PM   #19 (permalink)
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So you're sure that what is happening is that animals are legally being placed in the same catagory as children and infirm or disabled adults and are afforded ALL of the same rights? I'm not sure that is the goal but if it is I would like to know what jurisdictions have in fact done this. As far as "America bashing" goes, I was simply pointing out that we're talking about the place with the best resources on earth and, frankly, some of the most noble goals of any country on earth but hasn't been able to accomplish them. This is a fairly objective statement I think unless you believe that the USA has been successful in doing all the things it has set out to do in law. That would mean that they have been successful in providing for and protecting each and every person in the country while at the same time protecting their freedoms. When the day comes that American politicians are so good at writing legislation that all of these goals are achieved for humans then we can start worrying about laws that give animals the same rights. The law does function using language and terminology so if I'm wrong then please quote some of this legislation that grants animals the same rights as human dependants. I just don't think it's really there and if it is it's completely unenforceable.
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Old 10-17-03, 01:47 PM   #20 (permalink)
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I am already seeing a turn around in BC thanks to the Reptile REFUSE. It seems like legislation is going backwards. As more people are getting reptiles as pets and they are becoming more popular. Legislation isn't keeping up. Instead they listen to any wacko that says they are doing some good. A quick knee jerk reaction on the flavour of the month and reptiles are banned. Lets not forget that just any bum that looks half respectable can become part of the city council which votes on what you can and can not do within that city. At our by law meeting where they eventually banned some reptiles I got to see the BS :toilet: first hand. Where no one took the time to look anything up they are voting to ban. They listened to so called experts that knew nothing but refused to look at books and papers I brought. Trust me nothing surprises me. We are not safe in Canada. How many reptile bylaws have you heard of being removed? Can you name one? How many new ones have you heard being legislated? We are going backwards and no one seems to be doing anything about it. TB
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Old 10-17-03, 01:54 PM   #21 (permalink)
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please quote some of this legislation that grants animals the same rights as human dependants.
As I said. It is in the making. They will not push too hard untill they have a leg to stand on and point at the law and say "See? Right here! You are the Guardian of 2 children and 3 dogs. So you are legally responsible for all 5" If you are the gaurdian, would they all be dependants? Time will tell. But by changing that one word, it opens us up to a flurry of attacks and legislation. Oversimplifying the situation will not make it better.

But if you want to believe that it can never happen and that we are overeacting, sit back and have a chuckle. Meanwhile responsible and proactive keepers will continue to fight for our rights (and yours).
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Old 10-17-03, 01:58 PM   #22 (permalink)
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OMG could you imagine what would happen if your dog bit someone and you are the legal "guardian"? You would get railroaded.
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Old 10-17-03, 02:29 PM   #23 (permalink)
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I'm all for fighting for the rights of any group of people that deserve it, I've inhaled enough teargas to back that up too. I just don't perceive a true threat here. I have no doubt that there are people and organizations that wish to grant animals all the same rights as humans have under the law, I just don't think they're getting anywhere. There are groups of perverts that want to make child molestation legal too but they aren't getting anywhere either. These are ideas that are sick and scary and pursued with sincerity but aren't politically viable and therefore aren't anything to worry about. Municipal exotic pet bans are not the same as giving animals equal rights to their owners or even the children of their owners. These laws are for real (though most of us just play catch-me-if-you-can with them) and are worth standing up against. Worrying that someone is going to come along and tell you that you have the same responsibility to your cat as you do your child is like worrying that the Communist Party will win the next federal election and Fidel Castro will become the 44th President. Maybe Alec Baldwin can be vice-pres...?
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Old 10-17-03, 02:45 PM   #24 (permalink)
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worrying that someone is going to come along and tell you that you have the same responsibility to your cat as you do your child is like worrying that the Communist Party will win the next federal election and Fidel Castro will become the 44th President.
The difference is that this is a real threat and those are far fetched examples. If you do not percieve a threat, then that is your right. If you wish to oversimplify it, that is also your right. Believe what you wish. It has been put in front of us. It is up to us to SEE it for what it is. And I knew there would be those that would not. So be it. Many have seen beyond the propaganda to the true agenda and decided path of these groups. If this continues unopposed, then it will be clear to everyone. Only it will be too late. I am not recruiting or trying to change your mind. Simply raising awareness of a dangerous situation.
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Old 10-17-03, 03:23 PM   #25 (permalink)
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Don't get me wrong here, I'm opposed to this group of whackos as much as I'm opposed to the pedophile groups (well maybe not THAT much) but in the same way I don't see them as a political threat. No one is listening to them. There is a weird minority of people that want to make these huge changes to the law but it ain't gonna happen. I chose to use extreme comparisons because there are all kinds of groups that, no matter how hard they try, aren't politically relevant and these "animals are people too" morons are in that catagory. They make a lot of noise but have no power. Fight the bogey man all you want but it's a waste of time. I don't think I'm oversimplifying at all, I've asked for specific examples of how our freedom to posess animals has been threatened and you don't have any. I'm against the idea in principle and for now that's all it is, a silly idea some small crowd of flakey people support. When it comes to a real law that gives equal rights to animals and people then I'll take to the streets with you, you won't have to recruit me or convince me. I'm just taking this fruity idea for what it is: nonsense.
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Old 10-17-03, 03:49 PM   #26 (permalink)
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I think the bottom line is that they are paving the way, gaining support, and achieving thier immidiate goals. This will give them grounds in the future to pursue the stronger issues and also help gain them credibility with the public and with legislators as they already have victories under their belt. Fruity or not, it IS working and without opposition it will continue to work. Of course this has not impeded rights yet. It is still in its infancy. Better to strike early when we can achieve victory than to wait until the problem is too large. We can't wait until it is too late.
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Old 10-17-03, 04:24 PM   #27 (permalink)
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As I said, we're on the same side on this issue it's just a question of whether or not this movement is actually having any impact. You talk of their small victories but will not provide any examples, this makes me think that the victories are so small that they can't be seen. Just as soon as there is even proposed legislation like you're talking about I'm there, fighting it because it is a stupid idea. But if there isn't even a tabled law to resist then you're fighting a ghost.
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Old 10-17-03, 05:59 PM   #28 (permalink)
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This is not good! I hope we can stop this trend. I'm sure some Canadian members of the groups BW named are already contemplating bringing it forth here too. Maybe some recon in their web sites would be in order.

While I feel that everyone has the right to say what they want, trying to force EVERYONE ELSE to do what some special interest group wants is just wrong. If they feel they have the right to force us to use the term "guardian" then we surely have the right to oppose them and that's what we should do.

So, is there any way we in Canada can help?

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Old 10-17-03, 06:15 PM   #29 (permalink)
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Who has alredy adopted the change?

The state of Rhode Island
Boulder, Colorado
Berkeley, CA
West Hollywood, CA
San Francisco, CA
Sherwood Arkansas, Menomonee, Wisconsin
Amherst, Massachusetts

These I found quickly. I am sure there are more. How long does the list have to get before it becomes a concern?
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Old 10-17-03, 06:29 PM   #30 (permalink)
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I heard about this a while ago, didn't think they had been that successful. to my horror they have. I don't know if legeslation is enough to stop these kooks that wish to impose on your rights and freedoms. and i can see the movement happening in canada, starting in bc then following else where in canada.
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