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Old 10-01-03, 12:53 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Animal Activists - need your ideas on how to combat stupid anti-reptile protests!!!

I'm just not going to stand for this! I really want to do something about it, but I don't know what!

I found out who the group is trying to ban the IHS from holding reptile shows in the UK!!!

Fortunately they didn't succeed on Sunday, and the show was really good, but no thanks to them!!! People were turned away on the door due to 'new rules' and all photography was banned, and there was high security on the door!!! Nice. Not.


Please have a look at the following link, and tell me what on earth you think I should do!!! They are really proud that they have overturned 4 potential reptile zoos! Great!!!

http://www.animalaid.org.uk/campaign/index.htm

You have to scroll down til you get to the 'Good News for Reptiles' Section. They are mad and completely ill informed.

These people are going to campaign in utter ignorance against anything to do with reptiles, regardless of how good or educational or ecologically sound the plans are!!!

I'm sick of sitting back and letting this happen and I'm not going to.

ANY IDEAS FOR ACTION? Come on - you guys are clever and innovative!!! WHAT SHOULD WE DO???

HELP!

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Old 10-01-03, 01:31 PM   #2 (permalink)
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*sigh* Why can't people who aren't interested in another persons hobby, or don't agree with it, just LEAVE those people alone! This world really has one large lesson to learn IMHO, Mind Your Own Business.

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Old 10-01-03, 01:58 PM   #3 (permalink)
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You know, its hard to really say that these people are the enemies... While myself, you and others take excellent care of their reptiles there are alot of people who just dont.. There are more dead reptiles in the trade than any other pet trade going.

I've had many discussions concerning the reptile trade, and most people ive spoken to anyway, share my opinions. Reptiles are just like inanimate objects to most people.. They are trading cards, trade 2 "cheap" ones, for 1 "expensive" one with very little regard as to where their animal is going. I dont think that the reptile industry should be outlawed, however i do feel ALOT of intervention is in order. This is just my own opinion..

I do feel these people have the animals best interest in mind before anything else.. Quote from their listing:"The ban followed recognition by the authorities that these vulnerable and sensitive animals make highly unsuitable 'pets' and that the majority were living short, wretched lives. Equally, national populations were being seriously depleted as a result of dealers' activities."

Now ask yourself, how many new comers have you met that have their lizard or snake in a completely wretched setup? I have to say that this site really has been a very good place to educate newcomers, and i think we need more user friendly sites such as this one to help newbies educate themselves.

All I really have to say here is, I agree with what they're saying on alot of points. I do feel bad for the people who take care of their animals. But as the old saying goes, one bad apple spoils it for them all. Until the bad apple is eliminated, which is our sole purpose as reptile keepers.. Set a better example for the future of this hobby.. Help a newbie, report a bad pet store.. Harrass your local SPCA so they become more reptile friendly, and go after these pet stores.
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Old 10-01-03, 02:00 PM   #4 (permalink)
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Maybe I missed part of the article, but it doesn't really get into any detail. It says that the exhibition had animal housing that was "far from adequate". I don't understand....were you folks at the exhibit? Do you know first hand that the enclosures were actually adequate? If you are basing your opinions of that three paragraph article, you are probably as out of line as the persons responsible for the article.

Maybe they were inadequate? I don't know. I'm just saying with out any evidence either way, it isn't really prudent to judge. Being quick to judge, with out researching is what causes anti-reptile sentiment in the first place. Why take part in it?
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Old 10-01-03, 02:06 PM   #5 (permalink)
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Nic, read the whole thing. http://www.animalaid.org.uk/campaign/index.htm
They have a good write up of why they feel the Reptile trade is completely out of control..
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Old 10-01-03, 02:17 PM   #6 (permalink)
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V.hb that's the exact same link given before what are you trying to point out.
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Old 10-01-03, 02:21 PM   #7 (permalink)
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Here's the url to the pet trade article:
http://www.animalaid.org.uk/campaign...fe/reptile.htm

I think that that article is well written...they haven't written anything entirely inaccurate. It is those things that bring bad press to this hobby. That is why we have to be sure to research species before buying to ensure proper husbandry, research breaders/stores to ensure origin etc...

It sucks when people who take care of their animals are lumped in with those who don't but that's life.

Nic.
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Old 10-01-03, 02:36 PM   #8 (permalink)
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Try contacting these guys they may have some advice or suggestions.
Good luck,
Trevor

http://www.pijaccanada.com/English/home.cfm
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Old 10-01-03, 02:39 PM   #9 (permalink)
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Oh sorry, just read it.. The link isnt working. Scroll down and read the whole article titled "The reptile Trade"

It's all very common stuff we see daily, espeacially if you work in a pet store, or have worked in one.
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Old 10-01-03, 02:41 PM   #10 (permalink)
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Oh here, what I meant to point out.. Goto the list "the reptile trade" below it says Campaign history.. And below that theres Factfile.. They have a write up of why they do what they do.. And its all valid IMO. I still don't feel its fair to penalize alot of the people who do care for their herps, but like i said above..
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Old 10-01-03, 03:04 PM   #11 (permalink)
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Actually, I agree with what most of you are saying...

Our main frustration here is this:

On the one hand, the organisation as a whole actually has some really GOOD ideas, and yes, I completely, 100%, wholeheartedly agree that the reptile trade is responsible for activities which are less than adequate, BUT...

Does that mean there should be NO serpentariums, NO reptile shows, NO public education initiatives? In the whole of the country? And NO-ONE should be allowed to keep reptiles? At all?

I'm not trying to do down animal welfare organisations, far from it, but what I do want to do is try to get a balance!

I'm pretty sure (I'm going to check my facts on this one) that the millenium serpentarium in South Wales was overturned eventually on the grounds of public health hazard - they got residents from nearby up in arms about having lots of dangerous and virulent reptiles living soooo close!!! Now I also seem to remember that those plans were absolutel NOT 'inadequate' in so far as the animals were concerned and was intended to be a showcase educational, conservation-minded attraction!
However, any facility would be 'inadequate' in the protester's eyes because they claim that 'most reptiles die within the first year in captivity'!!!
Judging by the number of young most species of reptile produce in the wild, I'd say that numbers-wise most reptiles die within their first year in the wild, too.

What I was really looking for in my first post was ideas for getting more balance, more facts into this whole area - not the undermining of the organisation generally. I'm sorry if this wasn't very clear - I'm a tad upset by the whole thing!

I've even thought of joining them, and then trying to educate them from the inside... what do you think?


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Old 10-01-03, 05:12 PM   #12 (permalink)
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Most people look at a problem and figure out how to trim the leaves. What we need is an organization or coalition of people to cut it at the roots. The pet stores, the importers. We need laws to govern the exotic pet trade, primarily reptiles, that state that if you are interested in getting a reptile, it is mandatory to research it beforehand and answer some simple, logical questions. The problem with people is that they are stupid. They will see a tropical snake on TV in its natural environment, assume all snakes need that environment and go buy a sand boa and then try to duplicate the natural snake environment seen on tv. To us educated people that sounds ridiculous, but when I saw my first chameleon, a veiled, I assumed that was the only kind of chameleon. But now I consider myself somewhat of a novice/expert on chameleon knowledge (not experience) and know there are MANY kinds of chameleons with ranging habitat requirements. There should be machines at pet stores where you can go to pre-set sites on the machine and print off whichever caresheets you need, and THEN decide what species you want, if any.

All in all, I completely agree with what these fanatics are saying, although I disagree that we, the educated, should pay for the idiocy of our peers. But hey, look at us, I, out in Western Canada, have to learn the stupid language of the French. Unfortunately, people are stupid.

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Old 10-01-03, 05:26 PM   #13 (permalink)
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I don't know, they seem a bit.... extreme? Like, you don't have to ban the whole pet trade, you can just make it better for the animals.... Thats how I feel about the whole thing. ~TR~
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Old 10-01-03, 05:42 PM   #14 (permalink)
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brig: You should do that (join them to educate them) thats the kinda stuff we all need going on!!

I do agree, it isnt fair to shut down the entire industry due to fraction of people.... But think about it, alot of people on this very site own purely wild caught animals, unfortunatly I do as well. These animals go through one hell of an ordeal while being sent to our homes, and they come in mass numbers where quite a few of them die. This is another reason why theres such a passion to end this hobby. Its very rare even if these animals do survive that they go on and live healthy lives.

I say the overall boycotting of pet stores is a must now. encourage captive bred stock and for the people who have wild caught stock to breed their animals and add to the list of CB that are already available. Everyone here has valid points, and seem to want to see the bettering of this hobby so were already in the right direction.. Let's just hope it gets noticed that this hobby isnt all bad.
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Old 10-02-03, 05:16 AM   #15 (permalink)
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But hey, look at us, I, out in Western Canada, have to learn the stupid language of the French. Unfortunately, people are stupid.
LOL!!! You have my deepest sympathy - I never did get on with French (the language not the people... tho' now I come to think of it... just kidding).


But seriously, the reason I raised this rant here is that this friction between the animal activists, the reptile 'industry' and the poor old genuine herper seems to be a truly international problem!

V.hb - you really touched a raw nerve with me with your comment on 'trade 2 "cheap" ones, for 1 "expensive" one'. I've never understood this mentality - the animal itself is always more important to me than its perceived value!

And the way in which an animal is cared for is more important to me than getting a 'bargain' - I was about to buy a pair of Kenyan sand boas at the weekend, until the woman selling them said 'oh yes, they live together fine, we keep 4 adults in that...' and pointed to a tub around 20" x 12" x 8". Seemed mighty small to me! OK for just bringing the snakes to the show, but to live in it permanantly? Not much of a life, is it? We didn't buy from her, because we don't believe in encouraging this.

So, yes, the industry causes problems, individuals cause problems, and irrational opponents cause problems. It's easy to see where a lot of the problems are.

It's just a lot harder to work out what some of the solutions might be!

I'll shut up now, because I'm not really saying anything which hasn't been said (possibly many times) before! It's just that I have an urge to get of my arse and try to do something constructive, but I'm lacking inspiration and feel generally demoralised at the same old circle of arguments.

I guess I'll go and think about it some more...!


Oh, by the way, Boidkeeper - thanks for that link! Looks like an interesting place to start. Thanks for being constructive!
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