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Old 09-28-03, 05:48 PM   #31 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by Lisa
Who knows, maybe it was a lover from another life.
Wow.
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Old 09-28-03, 05:50 PM   #32 (permalink)
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Quote:
the fact is they want to be handled
Couldn't disagree more.
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Old 09-29-03, 01:10 AM   #33 (permalink)
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OK i didnt read all the replies to this post but here is my 2 cents...lol The bad thing about anthropomorphism is that it hides our narcisstic beliefs, IT rejecting anthropocentrism, however by being anthropomorphic we are being anthropocentric because we are placing human qualities/concepts in then animal kingdom, thereby unconsiously implying that humans are the center of the universe. Thats is whats wrong with it, we arent the center of the unverse nor the earth. Anyway thats another discussion.

We just went over this topic in my social science class, Nature & Human Nature. lol Hope I didnt confuse anyone.

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Old 09-29-03, 01:52 AM   #34 (permalink)
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I think the root cause of anthropomorphism is often missed.
I hope I don't come off as sounding sexist, but it is predominantely a female quality, and it's root cause is maternalism and it's triggered subconsciously and instinctually.
Humans especially those of the female persuasion, tend to develope bonds with creatures with 2 eyes spanning some resemblance of a nose .. and this is why leopard geckos, and Bearded Dragons are so popular. Anything that resembles human infants, and vaguely emmulates any of those facial characteristics that the brain equates to human, tends to get fauned over and emmotionally bonded with as if it were human.

This is why mostly the fuzzy creatures and big eyed herps, with wide "smiling" faces are cherished, given names, cuddled etc.

I know females that knit clothes for their geckos, and take them to the vet more than they go to a doctor themselves... I don't have a problem with this,and of course it's cute and harmless, but its also somewhat irrational, so lets understand where it's coming from and the force that drives it.

If all lizards, snakes, birds and mammals looked like face-less tape worms,nobody but the scientific community would give a damn.
nobody would be cuddling , naming them,Knitting little jackets for them or blowing their rent money buying them..

This is why there is such an uproar about seal culls in the north..The little guys are cute and look like helpless children.
Nobody would care if they were whacking jelly fish on the polar ice. Why? because they don't have faces or other human characteristics.
We're attracted to features resembling our own!
And Speilberg's no dummy...The knowledge of Anthropomorphism is why ET didn't look like an Ameba. Who the heck would go to a movie about middle class kids and a blob of cosmic ectoplasm?

The biggest problem with anthropomorphic behaviour is that it comes with real emmotion, and while being misplaced , this emmotion can lead to protectionism, and is one major trigger for activism and other irrational behaviour that threatens all people working in animal husbandry.

In other words..Anthropomorphism sometimes clouds the ability to be rational and objective while making decisions regarding animals!
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Old 09-29-03, 03:56 AM   #35 (permalink)
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Holy smokes Uncle Roy, that was a dynamite post! So dynamite, I saved it. No lie!


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Old 09-29-03, 10:29 AM   #36 (permalink)
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As a human of the female persuasion, I'm not at all offended by that post...my own anthropomorphic ideas definitely stem from my maternal/caretaking instinct (although I'm sure that some males have a paternal instinct that kicks in, too, just not as strongly, perhaps). I don't know if I would agree that it's subconcious, though. I'm pretty aware of it, even if it's hard to put words to sometimes. I guess I can't speak for all female kind

Quote:
And Speilberg's no dummy...The knowledge of Anthropomorphism is why ET didn't look like an Ameba. Who the heck would go to a movie about middle class kids and a blob of cosmic ectoplasm?
Hahahahaha. Great post!
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Old 09-29-03, 10:51 AM   #37 (permalink)
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Roy - have to say you captured it best - the essence and the potential consequences - great post - I agree almost totally - have to say that I think the human response to baby faces extends to males as well as females, though it may be more pronounced in females (actually hasn't it been demonstrated in other mammals and even birds as well?)

great points - especially about the real impact of thinking of animals as humans

mary v.
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Old 09-29-03, 11:12 AM   #38 (permalink)
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lol, interesting thread. I think it is wrong because it degrades another perfect creature. What reason could a snake ever have of even wanting human attributes? My own view of seeing mankind as more a cancer to nature than a blessing biases me. Personally, I don't want any of my animals to be anything even remotely human like. Giving human qualities to animals is a social construct just like believing there is such a thing a different human races. Re-enforcing these social constructs leads to discrimination in our stratified social orders. If I was a snake I would hate to think I shared any human traits lol.
 
Old 09-29-03, 11:40 AM   #39 (permalink)
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Great post Rev! I'm surprised it took you so long to pipe up!
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Old 09-29-03, 11:46 AM   #40 (permalink)
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I read this entire posting and I think it’s a great discussion- great topic Lilyskip. Here’s my 2 bits (maybe a little more than 2..):

I’m aware that they don’t necessarily poke their heads out of hidey holes because I’m home and they are excited to see me. When their timers go off for their lights in the evening and I say “Good night girls” I know they aren’t saying “good night” right back to me. But there is something settling in the notion that maybe, *just maybe*, they do a little extra tongue flick now and again for me in the notion that they may think “hey- something just picked me up, she’s warm and cozy, I feel safe, I like the situation I’m in, this is ok.” Or even if they had simply a computerized type response- “Non threatening”, that makes me feel better than thinking, oh- it’s tolerating me again, as opposed to “Dear god- here it comes again! Noooooooo!”

Are we humoring ourselves sometimes? Yes. But because we are aware that they are in fact snakes/reptiles/what have you, and we are educated on the creature that we have before us, I don’t see a threat in the far-fetched hope that there is a little gratitude for all that we do. (Gratitude is probably a bad word choice, but please just work with me here.)

I don’t expect my snakes to think, “Great, she shelled out the extra $15 for the bigger fancier water bowl”, just the contemptment that it has an appropriate functioning water bowl. I just don’t think the wishful thinking is hurting anyone.

I am the world’s best rambler, so I’ll end my thoughts on the following 3 notes:

1- When I move in 2 weeks, I am hauling my plants that I’ve had for 7 years half away across the US to my mom’s because I want them to live out the rest of their lives happily, not to try to survive off of beer and cigarettes like I know my roommate would feed it. Does my plants really care in the long run- no- but it makes me feel better that I tried, yep.

2- Stockwell is correct, I would not have spent a dime to house tapeworms, and I would not have bought ET if I was simply watching a blob of cosmic ectoplasm.

3-
Quote:
Originally posted by Stockwell
I know females that knit clothes for their geckos
That’s just sick! Little rat dogs dressed up are bad enough! Now ther are "females" meaning MULTIPLE people knitting clothes for their geckos?? If no one thinks other geckos aren't going to make fun of the "dressed up" ones, then stand back- becasue I will!!

:mednormal
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Old 09-29-03, 11:59 AM   #41 (permalink)
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lmao
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Old 09-29-03, 03:18 PM   #42 (permalink)
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I do and I don't. I always talk to my animals, I say they are misbehaving or whatnot, and so forth... I say it just for me... or in joke... that's as far as it goes. I in no way, shape, or form make the mistake of actually applying it to these animals... the way I study them, the way I care for them, the way they are - because that is a complete and total misrepresentation of everything they are and cannot acheive anything other than a total misunderstanding of the whatever species which in turn can lead to improper care and management (which can only lead to animals not being kept optimally), as well as unsuccessful attempts at any goals, being breeding, keeping, or studying. IMHO it is quite arrogant to believe that all creatures on this planet think, feel, and react like humans.

Quote:
Originally posted by Steeve B
the facts remain shod science come out and say Animals are capable of emotion! This who’d be like setting a nuclear bomb on a global scale, just think about it for 10 second, see the implications?
Science has proven that animals DO have emotion. Companion animals such as dogs and cats DO have emotion, not human emotion, but emotion nonetheless. This is why you have conditions such as seperation anxiety in all sorts of animals ranging from elephants to cats. Same with jealousy, etc. Cannot be argued that they are scientifically accepted, as they would not be able to be applied in veterinary medecine if they were not. Primates are the only animals that have any sort of emotion comparable to humans. Other animals DO have emotion, although it is not human emotion, hence anthromorphism can lead to problems. I personally do not believe reptiles and amphibians have emotions, however to say that ALL animals ared incapable of experiencing emotions is IMHO quite far of the mark.

Quote:
Originally posted by Stockwell
is is why leopard geckos, and Bearded Dragons are so popular. Anything that resembles human infants, and vaguely emmulates any of those facial characteristics that the brain equates to human, tends to get fauned over and emmotionally bonded with as if it were human.


Eeeeeeewwwwwwwwww... beardies and human babies
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Old 09-29-03, 03:34 PM   #43 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by reverendsterlin
If I was a snake I would hate to think I shared any human traits lol.
If you were a snake, you WOULDN'T think, would you?

I think we all anthropomorphize. To think of it as morally wrong is taking things a step too far. I'm not trying to flame, it's just that I don't think there's anything degrading about looking at a snake in human terms. It's impossible for us to understand snakes as they are...we're not snakes. We don't know what goes on inside their heads. The best we can do is give them the proper care they need.

It seems possible that another source of anthropomorphism could just be that we can't comprehend them on a deeper level on any terms other than our own.
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Old 09-29-03, 03:36 PM   #44 (permalink)
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Same with jealousy

Linds I will post somthing in this regard on the varanid forum.
by the way I never expresed sides on this matter, only facts
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Old 09-29-03, 03:37 PM   #45 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by jncoclub
I read this entire posting and I think it’s a great discussion- great topic Lilyskip.
Thanks, btw
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