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Old 09-27-03, 06:20 PM   #16 (permalink)
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I would like to know of books, articles, essays, etc. that say that reptiles feel emotion. I have not heard of any. If I'm sitting in the dark here, I would like to know.
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Old 09-27-03, 07:27 PM   #17 (permalink)
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Re: ...

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Originally posted by Jeff_Favelle
When you start to do that, you start to think that your snake is doing things for reasons that are NOT the true reason. This can then lead to BAD/WRONG husbandry. And it normally does.
I agree with this. My point is that it doesn't seem bad to enhance the experience of having a pet by giving it emotions, as long as you know and understand that it doesn't actually have them. I'd compare it to the guy in orginal Matrix who had dinner with the agent. He had the steak on the fork, knowing that it wasn't really there, and that it was just electric impulses being sent to his brain, and ate it anyway just to enjoy it.

I don't think there's a problem with combining proper husbandry and an understanding for the actual, instinctual reasons that a snake does something, while looking at your snake as a multidiminesional being with some semblance of a personality. Even if we know it's not true...if it makes the hobby more fun (and the animal doesn't suffer), why not?
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Old 09-27-03, 07:37 PM   #18 (permalink)
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My point is that it doesn't seem bad to enhance the experience of having a pet by giving it emotions, as long as you know and understand that it doesn't actually have them.
But if you KNOW it isn't true, how the heck can you convince yourself to think that it is? My mind can do some crazy s**t, but that isn't one of them.
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Old 09-27-03, 07:47 PM   #19 (permalink)
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Re: ...

Quote:
Originally posted by Jeff_Favelle
But if you KNOW it isn't true, how the heck can you convince yourself to think that it is? My mind can do some crazy s**t, but that isn't one of them.
I dont' convince myself so much as I just don't constantly remind myself that he would be just fine on his own. When people ask me if he likes being held, I explain to them that snakes don't have human emotions, that they merely tolerate being handled, etc., but when I take him out for handling time, that's not the first thing on my mind. The first thing on my mind is to make sure that he's safe and not getting stressed, and the second thing is to just enjoy playing with my snake. I like to give him a little internal monologue, just for myself. Again, I know he doesn't have it, but that's just not on the forefront of my mind those times when I take him out.

I guess I just see this as a problem if the snake is clearly getting stressed out, and you think, "Aww, he's just so excited that he doesn't know what to explore first!" It's then that you have to snap out of, "aww, he's so cute" mode and go into, "Huxley's freakin out, time to leave him alone in his tank" mode. I think as long as you can keep your own, personal, incorrect, human-centric view of your snake separate from what your snake's needs are, then it's all good, IMO.
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Old 09-27-03, 08:36 PM   #20 (permalink)
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I dont' convince myself so much as I just don't constantly remind myself that he would be just fine on his own.
I agree. That is one way you could do it, and if you don't get carried away, and the snake doesn't suffer, then go for it! Totally.


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Old 09-27-03, 11:22 PM   #21 (permalink)
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I am torn on this topic.....

Sometimes I think that they (The snakes) "like" being in captivity, simply because they do not have to hunt. It's "easier" for them. I even go to the extent of saying that my male bp "likes" being held.

I also think that all my snakes have different "characteristics" about them. And they do have different "likes" (tolerances) and "dislikes" (things they will NOT tolerate).

I hate the "discussion" that always follows something like this becuase everyone decides that their way of thinking is the only right way.
I just think that everyone has their own opinion about it, and no one is going to change that opinion.

I personally would have to agree that they only tolerate us.
But I would have to also agree that to a certain extent that they "love, and need" us....maybe not in the same way a dog, cat, hamster, bird, etc.....etc.......might. But they still do.

As for the handling. BP's are sensitive to handling. But this is where the tolerance to humans come in to.
Just the other day I took my male BP to work, about 4-5 diff people touched and/ or handled him, 2-3 which were absolutely terrified of him! And he was there for about 1 hr -1 1/2 hours. But not even 4 hours later he took his FIRST large rat.

My little female BP refuses to eat whenever she decides she don't want to, Sometimes I swear she does it to frusterate us! She is in shed, she ate last time she was in shed, now she refused it.
She don't particularly (sp??) like to be held, and litterly only tolerates it.

The little corn, well every time we put our hand in there she curls up with her head in the middle and lifts her head, like she is going to strike. But she don't. After we pick her up she is fine. Will eat every day if we let her, whether or not she's been handled, picked up, put in a rubbermaid (to clean her tank).....she don't care. she will eat, and is getting more and more tollerable (sp?) about being handled..............

so everyones opinion is right........atleast to them, and no one is going to change their mind until they decide that someone elses idea or thought is right..............

I don't mean to offend anyone if I did........just my 2 cents!
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Old 09-28-03, 02:41 AM   #22 (permalink)
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....

*sigh*

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Sometimes I think that they (The snakes) "like" being in captivity, simply because they do not have to hunt. It's "easier" for them.
That's just it. You are doing it too. They don't have the concept of hunting. Or not hunting. Or "like". Or having an "easier" life. They have been built (evolution) painstakingly over time to be able to react to situations/events (called their ENVIRONMENT) better than any other animal. They have displaced all other competitors to occupy a certain niche in nature. They do that by having ingrained sets of instructions (called instinct/innate behaviours) that make them do certain things because of certain stimuli (again, their environment). This is what they do. They don't have a concept of it or a self-actualizing consciousness that they are doing it and are a part of a system. Not at all. And to think that they do is exactly what we are talking about!
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Old 09-28-03, 02:46 AM   #23 (permalink)
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I hate the "discussion" that always follows something like this becuase everyone decides that their way of thinking is the only right way.

I totally agree! But at the same time, it makes me feel good that there is actually a discussion going on about it! I mean, that's a good thing right? At least ideas are being tossed around.

Hey, there's an Ottawa in the States? That's our capital man!! LOL!

Cheers,

Jeff F.
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Old 09-28-03, 04:45 AM   #24 (permalink)
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Totaly agree with you Jeff, Ideas are most importante!
Rgds
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Old 09-28-03, 07:15 AM   #25 (permalink)
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lol...kind of a sketchy topic,i know for a fact most of my reptiles are probably scared of me,but ones we get attached to seem somewhat more human to us,to tell you the truth,i'm guilty of this to,i own a monkey tail skink,and to tell you the truth,i know she's not scared of me,and i might even dare to say she even seems to like me,i mean she nuzzles my neck,and seems to love a nice nap on my shoulders(and she's just so darn cute!)i find these animals truly remarkable,one of very few reptiles(if any others)that take care of there young after birth,and the father even plays a role in parenting,how crazy is that,oh well what i wanna say,whether my girl loves me or not is a mystery,but i still love her
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Old 09-28-03, 07:25 AM   #26 (permalink)
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As far as I have ever noticed, not one of any reptile I have ever seen or owned had any(understandable) emotional response. They just don't have it in their genetic or mental wiring. It's not there !!....They don't need emotions... Mammals such as dogs and cats do have emotional response quite possibly to interact with humans they developed(evolved) basic emotional response....Intellegence has nothing to do with emotions on a basic level, reguardles of brain size. Crocs due always seem to have a "grin on" though..lol
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Old 09-28-03, 02:42 PM   #27 (permalink)
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Most of the anthropomorphic owners I've met are folks who end up with very sick animals because they think docility equals tameness and contentment when it's often the first sign of illness in a reptile.

Take that with a grain of salt, though. Most of the owners I meet have animals that need surgery since I work as a surgical tech and reptile rescuer, it just so happens that roughly 2/3 of them I'd classify as the anthropomorphic type. So it might be that those types of folks are more likely to miss problems until they become a big deal because they misinterpret the early symptoms.
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Old 09-28-03, 03:02 PM   #28 (permalink)
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Quote:
But if you KNOW it isn't true, how the heck can you convince yourself to think that it is? My mind can do some crazy s**t, but that isn't one of them.
It's called Doublethink, my friend.
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Old 09-28-03, 03:52 PM   #29 (permalink)
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Ha ha 1984. GREAT book!
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Old 09-28-03, 05:11 PM   #30 (permalink)
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I dunno, I know certain snakes don't like to be handled, some tolerate it and some seem to enjoy it. Whether they enjoy it the same way as we would enjoy snuggling with a loved one or they enjoy it like we would enjoy sitting in the sun is a different matter, the fact is they want to be handled. A friend of mine used to have a wild snake come up to her when she was sitting on her steps and slither into her lap. She would pet it until she was ready to get up or the snake wanted to go and it would come back the next day. You can't tell me the snake didn't enjoy handling, not when it was exhibiting behaviour like this. Now I will admit, occurances such as this are rare, snakes are usually wise enough to avoid us. Who knows, maybe it was a lover from another life.
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