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Old 09-20-03, 05:46 AM   #16 (permalink)
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QUOTE]3: an extention of 2, had the Nazis not experimented with the Jews in the World War, we would be nowhere near how medically advanced we are today. Things DO have to suffer in order for knowledge to be gained. It is for the greater good. People just don't want to accept the truth, that's why religions exist.[/QUOTE]




Well Brock the above statement is a line of crap. It had nothing to do with the advance of cat scans or mri's or nuclear medicine or many other medical advances we have today. If you must know the human body was mapped out about 400 years previous to these events and the acient Chineese knew all of the nerves and nerve endings hundreds of years before that time. Do a bit of reasearch and find out what we knew before this horrid time in our history ever took place. Even people from thousands of years ago knew about cancers, and the peoples of South America(aztec's) performed brain surgery's on others suffering from tumors and other ailments that to this day require sugery. I would go on to state what was done to these poor Jewish people at the hands of the nazi darkness but in all reality I do not think you would listen.





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Old 09-20-03, 07:38 AM   #17 (permalink)
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:bugout::jawdrop: That is absolutely sickening! How is it that they are still up and running? Do they not have government inspections and so forth?
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Old 09-20-03, 07:51 AM   #18 (permalink)
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yup...i like us humans more and more everyday!:medangry:
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Old 09-20-03, 09:16 AM   #19 (permalink)
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Old 09-21-03, 07:40 PM   #20 (permalink)
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i agree with hip - brock .. you were out of line

i am a jew and damn proud of it and to say the nazis helped the medical world by killing 6 million inoocent jews because of their religion is crap. people are not animals, and in my opinion the persecution of the germans after ww2 was not enough to compensate for the loss of life. its not like iams is putting millions of dogs in ovens and trying to exterminate every last dog world wide ... by no means should you have compared jews to dogs like you did

shame on you brock ... respect for you just fell by more than you know
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Old 09-21-03, 07:50 PM   #21 (permalink)
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People are not animals, they're monsters. I'd rather be lumped in with the animals, you don't see them performing cruel experiments on anyone.
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Old 09-21-03, 08:09 PM   #22 (permalink)
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Angry

Quote:
1: Yes, it is very inhumane to disect any living organism without its consent.
No one is going to give you their consent, because to DISECT something, it has to be dead. (Not to mention the obvious fact that no animal is going to say "hey! Why don't you dissect me today!" .nonsensical statement.) The word you're looking for is VIVISECT.

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2: 99% of people fail to realize that the only reason dogs are so domesticated and so wide ranging is because they were bred by our ancestors for food. Well, primarily food, plus protection and hunting aids. As any dog owner knows, they will try to reproduce with anything that moves. This is why our ancesors chose this animal, because they reproduce fast and can supply them with so many services.
That isn't true. Let's see, what would you rather breed and eat? A small, wiry dog (don't forget that there were no 'fat' dogs back then. They were all half wolves or half coyotes, and not fed much in the ways of fatty treats), with poor quality meat (carnivore meat is poor, vs herbivore meat which is far better) that can't survive outdoors in herds (one male can have a few girls and they need a den in which to live in the winter) that eats MORE MEAT (what do you feed it, more dog meat, since everyone had herds of 10000 dogs to breed and eat? even people in the olden days knew that doesn't work)?? Or would you rather have a herd of big, chunky female cows (and one bull - which is enough to service a while herd) of high quality meat that eats grass which is growing anyway? Use your common sense, dogs were domesticated to hunt, eat table scraps and to protect.

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3: an extention of 2, had the Nazis not experimented with the Jews in the World War, we would be nowhere near how medically advanced we are today. Things DO have to suffer in order for knowledge to be gained. It is for the greater good. People just don't want to accept the truth, that's why religions exist.
That is far from the truth too. Hitler didn't learn much from his experiments, except that you can't change someone's eye colour by injecting die into their eye and that if you tie a woman's legs together when she is about to give birth, she will die. He did, perhaps, further the idea of cloning, but he didn't learn anything that we wouldn't know now if it weren't for him. Hitler was a cruel, genocidical person who killed Jews because they weren't 'good enough' for him, not because he was a doctor and wanted to further medical knowledge and just *happened* to use jews as guinea pigs.

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I do not support this, and I'm not against it, these are simply some logical points.
You aren't against it? So, if someone cut meat out of your legs and left you to (maybe) recover on a cold, dirty floor, it would be okay, just because you are expendable to the rest of the world?

I agree with Lisa - boycott the product.

Zoe

Last edited by Zoe; 09-21-03 at 08:14 PM..
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Old 09-21-03, 08:39 PM   #23 (permalink)
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i do my best to avoid companies like those.....i have always been against Proctor and Gamble and make it a habit to read the labels cuz they make so many things, i am also against a drug called Premarin and its maker Ayerst, my horse (pmu foal)is a direct result of this drug which there is plenty of alternatives available, his life was saved, but many more are not that lucky
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Old 09-21-03, 09:31 PM   #24 (permalink)
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A food product that a company puts out also only passes poor standards. food tests go on for 6 months, with 8 animals, and if no more than 3 or 4 animals die, and don't lose more than 15% of their body weight, the food is passed and put on the shelves.
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Old 09-22-03, 03:54 PM   #25 (permalink)
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Oh my god. *shakes head*

First off, I never stated anything about the Nazi's being RIGHT in the holocaust, which they were NOT, I was just saying that some of their experiments that they so brutally carried out on the Jews were beneficial to scientific knowledge AT THE TIME. OBVIOUSLY putting people in gas chambers does nothing for anyone, it's just dumb to accuse me of meaning that, dumb dumb dumb dumb dumb. And OBVIOUSLY anyone with common sense knows the holocaust was a big mistake and millions of innocents were murdered without reason. I said this for the sake of argument. I wasn't categorizing the entire holocaust, I was just saying that certain experiments carried out during these dark times were somewhat beneficial to medical knowledge AT THE TIME!!! which acted as a catalyst to fields studied which led to scientific advancments that we know NOW. Not about MRI's and stuff, what kind of sense does that make? Did we even have those back then?
Hip, I know that the Ancient cultures had medical values that were well advanced, but as you stated in your own post, different cultures have to figure it out for themselves. We aren't a bright species, we don't go back 2000 years and see how things were done, we just figure out how to do them again. I'm more than positive that the more natural cultures of the world have cures for ailments that will take us another 5 decades to figure out. But, we as our own culture have to do this ourselves, we are selfish and ignorant.
Jason I was not out of line, you simply misunderstood my post. Of course the holocaust was a waste of life, but there was some beneficial medical knowledge gained from it, it may not have been much compared to the lives lost, but it would have otherwise not been known to us at that time. And saying that we know now what they knew then without performing these experiments doesn't negate the fact that they weren't going to wait 30 years to figure it out. Now is better than later, and that's what they were thinking then.
Go read what I said and then read what you said, it makes little to absolutely no sense. I appologize if I offended you, but you were the one who read it willing to be offended. And yes, Jason, we are animals, despite popular belief.
Zoe, thanks, I didn't know vivisect was even a word. I'm glad you can understand what I say though. Read between the lines. The reason I said that was because consent would almost NEVER be given by any living organism for its body to be VIVISECTED or killed for the sake of disecting it. Zoe, the ancient peoples of the world were nomadic. They didn't stay on farms and raise cows, what kind of sense does that make when the seasons changed so drastically and they could not survive in one place at a time? Did cows even exist around here 10,000 years ago??????????????????????????????? I thought they were introduced by the Spaniards or something. Maybe that was horses. The dogs were bred for food in times of seasonal change and nomadic drift, when the caribou and elk and what not were also migrating to warmer climates. Dogs were a 'quick fix' if you will.
Hitler had no blood on his hands. I never mentioned Hitler in my post at all. Hitler got people to do things for him. In this case, scientists. They gained the knowledge, and Hitler could probably care less. And about Hitler being cruel and genocidal - thanks tips??
Zoe, I'm not against it because I know and realize that without these experiments, other lives would be lost. Take a well known example, Jesus died to save our souls from Hell. This isn't quite the same perspective or magnitued, but a simple comparison. These dogs must be experimented on in order to prevent other pet dogs from dying, or at least to treat them accordingly when they get ailments. If the powers that be all thought as you did, we wouldn't know anything about anything. I'm not for this either because I know that innocent dogs will die without benefit. Therefor I'm neutral on the subject. I will let you know that if I had to die in order to save hundreds of people, I would, even if I had to live on a dirty floor, WOOPDI DOO! I'm sure the dogs don't even know what carpet is, and I'm also sure they don't care. Everyone is expendable to the world if is for the greater good, anyone unwilling to do the same has no honour.

Do yourself and me a favour and don't take this personally. It's a debate, not an attack.

-Brock
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Old 09-22-03, 08:52 PM   #26 (permalink)
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an extention of 2, had the Nazis not experimented with the Jews in the World War, we would be nowhere near how medically advanced we are today.

I was just saying that some of their experiments that they so brutally carried out on the Jews were beneficial to scientific knowledge AT THE TIME.

I was just saying that certain experiments carried out during these dark times were somewhat beneficial to medical knowledge AT THE TIME!!!



Here you have just said the exact opposite of what you said in your first post,and that would be called a contradiction of a past statement.Like I said in my previous post I would enlighten you on what happened at that time but you have no retrospect and alas I will not be banned arguing with you. Like I said do a bit of reasearch. As boid keeper states in his sig (education is the key to success)



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Old 09-22-03, 08:54 PM   #27 (permalink)
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Oops double posted site is acting strange tonight







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“You know its funny I was thinking about what you said. The preeminent truth of our age is that you can not fight the system. But if as you say the truth is fluid that the truth is subjective then maybe you can fight the system. As long as just one person refuses to be broken refuses to bow down” “But can you win?” “Every time I say NO”

Last edited by hip; 09-22-03 at 09:01 PM..
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Old 09-23-03, 07:55 AM   #28 (permalink)
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Very Interesting how we jump right on Iams with this report. Remember it is not Iams that is doing this it is contracted companies.

I know you will say that is no excuse but how many of you go tour a company B4 you use any of there products and services. I know that in my position I deal with many sub contractors and I dont think that I have ever toured one or there facilities before I signed on. I have checked product and price and trade referances but never gone to check them out.

Also please remember that New is only as good as it's source and this is from PETA they would run the whole lot of us up the flag pole simply for keeping herps. I would not put any stake in anything anybody from PETA says they will lie cheat and steal to make you believe that they are right. I think we all know that there view of cruel is off (if this article is true it is deifnatly cruel) and that if they thought it was wrong they would do anything in there power to make it look worse.

Just remember that the source is often more important then the news itself.


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Old 09-23-03, 11:00 AM   #29 (permalink)
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Oh, I really hate this subject.

There are just so many different bloody angles, and not one of us can really appreciate them all.

My initial reaction was 'oh my god, I can't believe dog food companies need to indulge in this kind of research, it's disgusting'.

And then I thought about what they are trying to claim - that their food actually improves the health of your animals, and that's a different matter altogether. You just can't claim that without the scientific evidence to back it up.

In the UK (and the rest of Europe, of course) we are regulated by the European Directives, one on Medical Devices, one for Pharmaceuticals, and of course, several others.

In Canada, you are regulated by the CSA (I humbly apologise, but I can't remember right now what that stands for),

In the US, you are regulated by the FDA (Food and Drugs Administration).

The whole bottom line is that if you make a medical claim (which anything like 'improving the health of your dog/cat, etc' absolutely IS), then you have to abide by the relevant regulation for your product. No ifs, buts or choices. You (your company) does it.

I've worked for many years in medical devices. There are some INCREDIBLY frustrating International Standards which make you do some really crap testing if you want to be able to say you comply - and if you want to market your product, you have no choice but to comply.

The word I hate most is 'biocompatibility' testing. The standard ISO 10993 (actually a whole series of standards) describes in detail all the animal testing you have to do. It makes cold reading. You can only get away without doing it by PROVING that you don't need to (for example, you already have data from previous work, etc). And believe me, justifying NOT doing the work is often much harder than getting on and paying out for the work to be done. And some of these tests are not cheap. One suite of tests for a particular company's product cost around £70,000 (about $110K US or £140K Canadian). And this is over an above any research on whether the product actually works!!!

So you ask if there are any regulations to control animal testing - YES, of course there are... but regulations are to blame for instigating much testing too.

I think that the decision by IAMS is a purely commercial one, aimed at differentiating their product from the rest of the market, by adding these claims. So from that point of view, I completely agree with the people who have said that they put profit before ethics. I just wanted to explain WHY they would have had to perform the tests in order to be able to follow that route.

For what it's worth (if anyone's still reading this by now!), I've seen more videos of awful animal procedures than I ever wished to - I've attended meetings where we sat around chatting, drinking coffee and eating cookies whilst reviewing, say, a pig undergoing multiple liver punch biopsies in an acute study (i.e. the animal dies there and then), or a series of female rabbits receiving uterus wounds for a 'recovery' study (i.e. the animals are brought round and looked after for a period of time before sacrifice and dissection). In the latter one, my colleagues joked that the first rabbit brought out was a male! Somehow your mind blocks it out after a while, and it's all just plumbing. Every now and then, the horror breaks through, and has to be quickly subdued again, for sake of one's career!

And before anyone decides to bomb my house, I don't work in that field anymore!!! And when I did, I was just a minor player - I made no decisions, and had very little to do with the sharp end, I just happened to be "in the loop". I think that there is far too much unnecessary animal work done, and I'm turning my attentions to saving animals instead.

But I just DON'T think that it will ever be completely unnecessary, much as I wish that were the case. Too much good work comes out as well as all the appalling stuff.

Hope this isn't TOO much information...

peace,
Brig
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