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Old 09-17-03, 09:06 PM   #31 (permalink)
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The point is moot because if you are using spot bulbs to breed Ball Pythons, you WILL NOT be successful and your $20K investment will be lost.
[/FONT] Eh, it works and its been done, may not have been done with the "High-end" but not all of us care to use heat tape..

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So you had to lay out $20,000 get $40,000? That's a huge risk that a lot of people aren't willing to take.
Ya' gotta start somewhere, and like you said in a relative sense the more you have the more you get, I was just stating you still make the money, also, what do you do for 30 an hr job?


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Its just a different crop of people. I couldn't stand the poor conditions, the constant bartering of prices, the flipping of animals to new homes 20 times a year, etc etc etc. With higher end stuff, its a different clientle. People know what they want and they are usually veterans of the "industry". Trust me when I say that they are 10,000x better/more pleasant to deal with.
I agree with you on this part, and I believe it to be true on the stationary part of the section, however, what about the facts of inbreeding to quicken the production of these high end animals, which is commonly presented when the bloodline and genetics is given.. Personally, I could care less about anyone in the hobby, really. I keep my animals, for the animals.. They may not be on most peoples wanted lists but they make me feel all tingly inside and personally that all that matters.. We'll all have different veiws on things and generally its a no win thing, which is fine and it's obvious to my understanding you care about the creatures you have, as well as any that suffers and its all that matters, even if we do disagree on terms..

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The higher end clientel are, as a rule, really into the husbandry of the reptiles...
Chase, correct me if Im wrong but most of the high end breeders, use racks and the racks I see Bob Clark ( to use a well known "high-end breeder")and many others use don't really strike my fancy and most often than not disturbs me, and I've seen it in many other cases and will have to disagree with you on this.. Im aware alot may give ample space but most to my experience do not. I find that small hand keepers ar more enclined to give naturalistic enclosures and care for the animals as it is fit. But we know there are a few who dont.. Another win win section ideas..

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Since I started to buy the high end snakes I, (modestly) was forced to learn more about the medical aspects and care of the snakes than most Vets I know..lol...
I got into the specifics from a friend that we constantly competed against, and there's only one person who inspires me the most in my area of the interest and he is a scientist, not a high end anything.. That's who I follow behind, not breeders, but actual true blue scientists, However, I myself will not become one if it is up to me.. Also, how was you forced in to learning the more complex aspects of the hobby? Not counting anything that does with the breeding aspects, because I know you do have to know this area to get what you want, but can you tell me the meaning of terms that vets ( Or at least mine ) commonly use without honestly looking it up, such as Dysecdysis, Dystocia, Ecdysis, Germinal, Helminthes,Invaginated.. You don't have to answer the meanings, just curious if you know them.. Or did you mean more of the physical body section of knowledge such as feeding, or Brain structure, Circulatory system, eukaryotes, or the cardiovascular system? I am honestly interesed to hearing anyones veiws when it comes to the more less studied areas of herps, Most herpers are caught up on the Breeding area and everything that involves the genetic makeup.
However, Im going to stop responding to this post, because as it is, Me and Jeff wont generally agree, which is fine and a prolonged fourm of repetition isn't a favored item. I am still interesed in your interest of fields other than genetic makeup, when you get he chance and will of course read the responses..
Xain
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Old 09-18-03, 12:19 AM   #32 (permalink)
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...

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Im aware alot may give ample space but most to my experience do not. I find that small hand keepers ar more enclined to give naturalistic enclosures and care for the animals as it is fit. But we know there are a few who dont.. Another win win section ideas..
MISCONCEPTION, big time. Naturalistic setups are for the KEEPER, not the animal. The animal is built and has mechanisms to USE certain things, be that objects or environmental factors. A bunch of clutter in the cage does not mean its useable materials and it does not translate into a "happier" animal. I see this is going to be tough slogging because your reference point of info is very very skewed and mis-informed. But I will try, for a while.

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however, what about the facts of inbreeding to quicken the production of these high end animals, which is commonly presented when the bloodline and genetics is given..
Please tell me how you've been educated on the effects of inbreeding of wild lower vertebrates and what the inbreeding coefficient REALLY means. People alays just say" bla bla bla inbreeding is bad, bla bla", but they really haven't a clue what they are talking about. Inbreeding increases homozygosity, THAT'S IT! If you know of something else that it mysteriously does, please inform us all.



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I got into the specifics from a friend that we constantly competed against, and there's only one person who inspires me the most in my area of the interest and he is a scientist, not a high end anything.. That's who I follow behind, not breeders, but actual true blue scientists,

Exact opposite for me. I went to school. I took biology/zoology/conservation for 4 years at university. And let me tell you, I was not impressed with the "scientific community". And I know a LOT of smart people who aren't. I think its a lot of the blind leading the blind and a lot of silly garble-dee-gook (nonesense).


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Also, how was you forced in to learning the more complex aspects of the hobby? Not counting anything that does with the breeding aspects, because I know you do have to know this area to get what you want, but can you tell me the meaning of terms that vets ( Or at least mine ) commonly use without honestly looking it up, such as Dysecdysis, Dystocia, Ecdysis, Germinal, Helminthes,Invaginated.. You don't have to answer the meanings, just curious if you know them.. Or did you mean more of the physical body section of knowledge such as feeding, or Brain structure, Circulatory system, eukaryotes, or the cardiovascular system? I am honestly interesed to hearing anyones veiws when it comes to the more less studied areas of herps, Most herpers are caught up on the Breeding area and everything that involves the genetic makeup.

I don't understand that. This IS a reptile HOBBY forum! Of course that's what people are here for! If people like all the anatomy (my major was population studies in University) and other scientific stuff, but who cares? I like sports too, but what does that have to do with anything? Its like going to a hot rod forum and telling everyone there you are disgusted with them because they only discuss thier hot rods and not the physics of the combustion engine.

I find that strange. Not cool strange, weird strange.
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Old 09-18-03, 08:24 PM   #33 (permalink)
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[
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Naturalistic setups are for the KEEPER, not the animal. A bunch of clutter in the cage does not mean its useable materials and it does not translate into a "happier" animal
You don't say, I never said you had to add clutter and all the BS for a natural enclosure, never even said one should keep them in natural enclosures and I never intended for it to be a main interest of what I am saying, however, most of the housings I see alot of people give snakes is personally sad, even the professionals, I'd name them but I'm sure that's not a good deal on a legal debate for the site, but thats just me, Take it how you see it.. That's fine, do what you do see as you see it, I will do the same.


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Inbreeding increases homozygosity
There are some externally visible signs which often occur in inbred snake populations. These include things like scalation irregularities (such as partially fused ventral scales) as well as other deformities, such as deformed jaws. '
GEOGRAPHIC VARIATION IN SCALE AND SKELETAL ANOMALIES OF TIGER SNAKES ELAPIDAE NOTECHIS-SCUTATUS-ATER COMPLEX IN SOUTHERN AUSTRALIA. Author SCHWANER T D Copeia (4) 1990. 1168-1173.' Sure, the effects are most often or not long term effects and there may be many individuals of the actual species, but inbreeding them will of course bring out the severities.. Hell man, look around the oddities dont happen because of an accident, and most of these morphs aren't a wanted result with wild populations, thereas not a good gene..
selective breeding of particular genes runs the risk of losing some of the other genes from the gene pool altogether, which is irreversible. which is in-breeding depression. If in captivity we breed closely related animals for selective reasons and by choice, for instance to enhance a pair of recessive genes to produce a desired colour “morph”, the animals are inbred, however the animals may not shown signs of inbreeding depression. There is an increase in the probability that deleterious recessive alleles will come together. Generation over generation the probability increases alarmingly. Inbreeding reduces genetic diversity in a population, Captive or not, increasing the likelihood that genetic defects will become widespread and deprive a population of the diversity of genes one may exhibit.. In the long term, it is more advantageous for organisms to remain heterozygous; I mean hey, look around age the age depletion of Bearded dragons for the main part, which is the most often used animal when it comes to general inbreeding.. But if you want to see some long term results, look at pure bred dogs and cats, or my friend's Uncle Dad's Mom..


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Exact opposite for me. I went to school. I took biology/zoology/conservation for 4 years at university. And let me tell you, I was not impressed with the "scientific community". And I know a LOT of smart people who aren't. I think its a lot of the blind leading the blind and a lot of silly garble-dee-gook (nonesense).
As true as that is, I've yet to find Britton to steer me into the wrong mud hole.. I don't follow or care much about most scientists, as well as keepers, but the ones I lean to seem pretty prolific to me.

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This IS a reptile HOBBY forum! Of course that's what people are here for! If people like all the anatomy (my major was population studies in University) and other scientific stuff, but who cares? I like sports too, but what does that have to do with anything? Its like going to a hot rod forum and telling everyone there you are disgusted with them because they only discuss thier hot rods and not the physics of the combustion engine.

Ok, I know this is a fourm, and Im not stating anything about a fourm of any sort.. He mention being in the "High-end area" he was forced to learn more high tech knowledge (Medical and physical) of the animal(s) he kept, more than most vets he knows.. Though he never stated how many he knew, I was curious to why he was forced to learn the more complicated aspects of creatures, that is all.. And me going into a hot rod fourm (Even though it's different, becase we aren't talking live cretures here.) to find them talking the basics I'd be rather bord when it comes to that. "Hi, I have a car, it's a 71' hemi cuda, and its Plumb Crazy Purple.. I can run a 1/4 mile really fast.. Ive done it.." Yes, I have found some boring post here as well as other fourms, why do you think my post count is so low,compared to alot of other members that have came here several months later than me? Sure it may interest them no doubt, but we all have different interests. He stated what he stated, I only asked what he ment in his tense, that is all.. Im not insulting anyone, anything or anyplace, nor am I digusted in any of it.. I may only disaproved of some stuff, but me worring about what other people do will only get me left behind in what I do.. Hell, I don't even know why I am talking morphs, for this long, I've said what I said, you seem to disaprove and think it's sloot of opinion. That is fine, never expected anyone to think the way I do, or why I do, but this is a free fourm, so far, and I figured I'd give my feelings like you and everyone one else who did. And I have't given out specfic info. because you are on the unimited source of information, and the fact calling insultious words to what I type, if you are truely curious look it up, save the banwidth; If you disagree with me, fine, no big. I will still think the same way I do until I die or get bored, as so you seem as well.
Even though, we've said what we said and again, Im not gonna' post again for the saves sake of repetition, if you are truely curious, look it up or PM me and I wll show you my ways, if not cool either way.
Goodday,
Xain

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