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Old 09-17-03, 10:24 AM   #16 (permalink)
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There is a big difference between working with that is already there like recessive genes such as albanism or any number of morphs. With traits like those your not messing with nature because the animals already carry those genes from the wild. As for hybridising animals to introduce a trait that is wrong and should not be doen.
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Old 09-17-03, 11:39 AM   #17 (permalink)
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I'm with Jeff in both his post, same points I would have made.
I do see both sides of the coin though. You'll never find a creamsicle corn in the wild or an albino spider ball, chances of either are very very rare anyway. That's why I like the piebald ball python so much. In my opinion it is the most stunning naturally occuring morph that could be found in the wild. The chances of some of these designer morphs popping up in the wild are almost next to imposible but that doesn't mean we shouldn't produce them. Combining different colours with different patterns is why I like corns so much. The possibilities are almost endless.
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Old 09-17-03, 12:07 PM   #18 (permalink)
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I used to be more in favor of morphs than I am now. Some of the species where folks get really morph crazy are starting to show real immune system problems. Bearded dragons, leopard geckos and cornsnakes being the prime example. All of these guys are having problems with endemic adenovirus, paramyxovirus, and crypto and inbreeding is the suspected cause of their low disease resistance.

Most animals that have gone through the pet trade have been exposed to these pathogens and are fully capable of fighting them off, but the leos, beardies and corns get sick at a much higher rate.
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Old 09-17-03, 12:11 PM   #19 (permalink)
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I think Jeff as a point. I donít think people who breedsí reptiles are in for the money. If you calculate the cost of good specimens, the food for them, enclosures, the time to take care of them and all, it will probably cost you more than the revenue generated by them. So I think they have to be in it for more then just the money. Itís the offer vs. the demand. Itís true that I have a preference for the normal ones but I donít mind at all the morphs
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Old 09-17-03, 12:28 PM   #20 (permalink)
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I am gad to see that most responces to my post dealt with the overall welfare of the reptiles themselves and not a financial incentive as the primary drive....As I added before, selective breeding is, in my opinion, a benifit to the species as a whole; as Big Dan stated,"not as if we are going to re-establish a threatened population by releasing them into the wild". I am for working with the animals. If they are still breathing as a species then who cares what colour they are....
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Old 09-17-03, 06:17 PM   #21 (permalink)
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I don't know why you think people should feel bad.
When did I say this? Forgive me but I was under the impression that this thread was about posting opinions on what WE thought on the topic.. I could be wrong.

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Yeah? Methinks you have never bred an animal before. Let alone hundreds, which is what it takes to actually make money.


Think as you must.. So lets say I bred 1.1 balds which are going for what $17,500 - $7,500 depending on the seller, sex, age and the whole whatknot, so lets go about $10,000 on these animals.
I shot off 20 grand on adult, proven animals, (Though in reality they would cost more) I spend $500 on a two 48" W x 28" D x 18" H vision, being I only have two animals, I spend 30 bucks on F/T Med. rats for an annual feeding of 40 times, which isn't even correct because of the brumation period, (Friend told me the annual feeding, so the feeding times may or may not be correct according to your schedule) and let's go with butcher paper at say 15 bucks for the annual roll.. I like to use lights so lets use a UV bulb and a spot bulb, because of my habits and thats what, 30 bucks? Your electricity and water bill for the animals alone will run ya' what, not even 30 bucks? But lets say it does and for 12 months, just for humor, that would be $360 just for the animals water and electric.. So lets all this all up together.. 20.000+500+30+15+30+360 = 20,935 dollars.. Wow, holes in my pocket..
Now, my animals successfully reproduced because, I reek with awesomeness, and lets say I get eh, um.. 7 eggs.. Add a few bucks to care for these things, I dont care too, Im tired and my fingers dont go up that high added up, and 6 eggs hatch, that is about right, no? I feed them a few meals, and sell them off for 10,000, which means I get oh about 40,000 back.. Mind you, About. Sure a 20 thousand dollar increase, according to the animal prices and whatknot, maybe not a big increase, but next breeding season, you dont have to buy the animals so you save about 20 grand and you will get about a 60,000 income from the animals, which Im sure you will increase the "Stock" with the earnings, and for the 60,000 a year is a tad if not double the amount that most individuals make, so you are making money, you dont need hundreds of animals to do so.. And for the record I have bred most of the reptiles I keep, and most are either given away to friends or people I respect and sold off at pretty cheap prices, comparing to the going rate of the animals, to people who are interested, and I hear breeding balls is basically simple and imagine it is, so Where's the work in it again? Oh.. it's in the pesky eaters, Gotcha' By the way, this is all American on the prices..


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You seem to think its ok to keep animals in captivity, and I'm sure you like to acquire captive bred animals (if not, then let's stop this discussion).
I do, on most occasions, depending on the situation really.. Why should the conversation be dropped if I didn't? We are talking Morphs and Natural colors and the prices of them.. I don't see the validation..

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So people are supposed to give you these animals for free?

No, I don't care much for most morphs.. However, getting free animals I care for would be pretty spiffy.. I'm not saying the prices should be free, Im not saying the prices should be dropped, Hell, Im not even saying no one should have them; I am saying that the motive behind most these animals should be different, that's all I merely think..
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Old 09-17-03, 07:23 PM   #22 (permalink)
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...

The point is moot because if you are using spot bulbs to breed Ball Pythons, you WILL NOT be successful and your $20K investment will be lost.

Hence the "not easy to do" label that everyone is trying (unsuccessfully) to tell you.
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Old 09-17-03, 07:26 PM   #23 (permalink)
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You da man, Jeff............don't you hate when you wish you hadn't started a thread......lol
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Old 09-17-03, 07:26 PM   #24 (permalink)
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....

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Now, my animals successfully reproduced because, I reek with awesomeness, and lets say I get eh, um.. 7 eggs.. Add a few bucks to care for these things, I dont care too, Im tired and my fingers dont go up that high added up, and 6 eggs hatch, that is about right, no? I feed them a few meals, and sell them off for 10,000, which means I get oh about 40,000 back.. ,
So you had to lay out $20,000 get $40,000? That's a huge risk that a lot of people aren't willing to take. Heck, I just go to work everyday and make $50K without any risk. People who take risks should be renumerated. And they are. My time is worth about $30 an hour to me. So I make sure that things I do generate me that kind of income. Not greed, just my lifestyle.
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Old 09-17-03, 07:34 PM   #25 (permalink)
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!!!!

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You da man, Jeff............don't you hate when you wish you hadn't started a topic...lol

ha ha bro, its a GREAT topic! For sure. It all boils down to what turns people's crank. If they aren't outright abusing the animals, who the f**k cares why they breed things? Not me. And let me tell you this; the day I got out of cheap reptiles/amphibians and got into higher end stuff was the day I REALLy started to like this hobby. It had nothing to do with the animals themselves or the income/non-income. It had to do with the people I was dealing with. Its just a different crop of people. I couldn't stand the poor conditions, the constant bartering of prices, the flipping of animals to new homes 20 times a year, etc etc etc. With higher end stuff, its a different clientle. People know what they want and they are usually veterans of the "industry". Trust me when I say that they are 10,000x better/more pleasant to deal with.
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Old 09-17-03, 07:50 PM   #26 (permalink)
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ARE YOU RIGHT ABOUT THAT OR WHAT..LMAO...The higher end clientel are, as a rule, really into the husbandry of the reptiles...Since I started to buy the high end snakes I, (modestly) was forced to learn more about the medical aspects and care of the snakes than most Vets I know..lol...

Just a side thing that just happened..no shyite...my wife just handed me a Canadian watermelon and ..you won't believe it...the damm thing is yellow in the inside not red as usual...MORPH WATERMELON....is that creepy ??
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Old 09-17-03, 07:54 PM   #27 (permalink)
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...

Ewwww........yellow water melon? Take it back to the breeder!! LOL!
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Old 09-17-03, 07:58 PM   #28 (permalink)
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Too late I ate it ..was great...no kidding, yellow inside, only available this time of year. Thought it was funny while typing this post..lol
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Old 09-17-03, 08:22 PM   #29 (permalink)
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Ha haa, glad you Canucks finally caught up with us Pennsylvanians. The Mennonites here have been growing yellow melons for centuries.

No new morphs under the sun.
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Old 09-17-03, 08:46 PM   #30 (permalink)
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LMAO...well I guess I finally did....I was never that swift....lol
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