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Old 07-27-02, 01:04 AM   #1 (permalink)
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Jeff ******** and others, this case the practice of crossing two snakes from the same family but diffrent locales(i.e. Nicaraguan and Colombian Boa constrictors)
Crossing two snakes that are NOT from the same group, and do not share similar habitats nor geographic ranges(I.e. anaconda andArgentineboa)

Cannot be compared to someone line breeding dogs or cats to create a diffrent look, WHY? Because even in line breeding cats, you are still dealing with Felix domesticus, domestic cats.
NOW if you were to take, lets say a BOBCAT and cross it with a house cat, then that would be hyrbridization.Plain and simple

WHAT is going on in the herpetocultural community is just this:
You have a number of breeders, eager for profits and basically either bored or wanting to produce something"NEW" at any cost, who are commited to crossing snakes to get something NEW.


In ana era of a society that throws away children(Abortion) because they are an "inconvenience"
In an era of society that gets divorces in alarming numbers because they want to individually be "happy"
In an era where familys rarely spend any time together

I bring you the newest fad: "NEW HYBRID snakes that occupy the publics atention only long enough for the NEXT hybrid to be created!!

Do you think for one minute that they would cross them if they thought that what they produced would look like either parent 100%?What would be the rational behind that?
No..they do so so that they may nake something NEW

The PUBLIC has an insatiable desire and hunger for NEW things.
Witness Reptiles magazine, and the many new morphs(Not hybrids but morphs of non crossbred snakes) that grace the front cover. The PUBLIC eats this up

NOW realize this:

most peole that are new to this hobby, that may be buying these snakes, have NO idea of the natural history of the animal, where they come from, what the area looks like, the temps, the humidity,...NOTHING.
We haver separated the animal from its natural envionment. HOW many of these people have ever gone out or will ever go out to collect snakes in the wild and seee, first hand , what the enviornemt they live in islike, and make the connection.

Answer: NOT MANY

The hybrid crap is basically part of it.We now help create animals which are an abomination, which would never exists in the wild(BallXBlood...please...) and which, when bred tiogether produce genetic hodegpodge

Someone here said it is going to become more popular in the future. I guess then the people that are heavily into it now will be the ones laughing to the bank. But then...........thats what this is all about....................makeing money.....turning a profit..................haveing bragging rights...............
The same thing happedn with pot bellied pigs and brids.....the hobby gets consumed with those that desire to make this their livelyhood, no matterwhat the cost to us all.

I choose not to buy them
You must choose for yourself
Remember, what is NEW today to you
will be old in 3 years time
And no longer the novelty it was

Fred Albury
(Aztec Reptiles)






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Old 07-27-02, 01:33 AM   #2 (permalink)
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I hear ya!!! But if you know its going to be a pet for yourself and cant reproduce like ATBxETB is that o.k?
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Old 07-27-02, 07:20 AM   #3 (permalink)
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I agree .. Great post!
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Old 07-27-02, 08:16 AM   #4 (permalink)
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Abortion in a snake values....come on, what does that have to do with anything here. How do you think all of the different types of domestic house cats really came about. No one even really knows where the original genes came from anymore. The same goes for dogs...look i understand why your so passionate with the also for the preservation of all species of animals....but my though is that we have enough animals, of almost any species that we keep as pets to stop from pulling them out of the wild period. So if someone wants to develop a new that is healthy, will not be released into the wild, or neglected or does not have genetic defects such as an almost inability to eat on its own, i say go for it. Its time to stop raping the natural surrounding of this earth for our own means....when we have the capabilities to produce, perhaps even improve on species that we all currently already keep. S.t.
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Old 07-27-02, 08:23 AM   #5 (permalink)
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Originally posted by Aztec Fred
The hybrid crap is basically part of it.We now help create animals which are an abomination, which would never exists in the wild(BallXBlood...please...) and which, when bred tiogether produce genetic hodegpodge
What is more of a abomination, breeding a hybrid or line breeding snakes that have NO pigment in there skin and breeding them for that reason intentionally... Thats like breeding 2 people with sicocell genes to produce a calico or pigment free individual.... I see no problem with neither but it makes me disturbed when i see people who are all for the newst BP morph plucked out of africa but then say that they are against hybridization. is offline  
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Old 07-27-02, 09:12 AM   #6 (permalink)
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Too much to say, I'll try to be quick...

Okay, I'm not going to say everything, but I'll try to make my point. Let it be said that I am new to the hobby and no little about this, but here are my thoughts on your post:
1. Abortion is not always because it is "convenien". Sometimes a parent simply cannot take care of a child, and it would be worse for the child to be born into that. Also, this is not an "era". People have been leaving babies in streets to die for hundreds of years, so abortion isn't the worst thing out there.
2. Um...WHAT IS WRONG WITH GETTING DIVORCED TO PURSUE HAPPINESS?!? Yeah, our grandparents' generation didn't get divorced, but how many battered wives, alcoholics, etc. came from those situations? How many miserable people?
3. I think going out into the wild and taking a snake out of its natural home (when we have so many CB snakes)is wrong. Why would you do that?
4. Just a side note: I know a dog that is half wolf which is somewhat like your cat/bobcat example. She is perfectly fine. In fact, she is wonderful. Oh, and what is wrong with new things?
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Old 07-27-02, 09:59 AM   #7 (permalink)
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Your 1/2 wolf is a good example. Here in New Mexico we have a wolf rescue. There are dozens of these hybrids there that cannot be kept as pets any longer because they are dangerous from the highly developed pack mentality that caused competition between them and their pack/owners. These animals will spend the rest of their lives in dog runs because they cannot be released into the wild. Sure some may be great housepets but how many are destroyed or given to rescues every year? The good ones are probably no comfort to the many that die or are caged. So are say 1000 good hybrids of this type type worth the need to destroy 1000 or 100 or 10 or 1 of these animals because someones thinks 'wow, I can own a part wolf' ?JMHO
Old 07-27-02, 02:30 PM   #8 (permalink)
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Why Argue?

Why is everyone argueing? >(

Everyone is entitled to their own oppinion! Whether its about

hybrids, divorce, abortion, etc.

What you think about one situation may be completely different

than what someone else thinks.

Imho I think wut u think is right is right. If some one else doesn't agree with you who cares it's what u think that matters.

I don't see the frickin point in fighting over someone elses oppinion. If you have a problem judt keep to yourself and everyone will be !

Thanx for listening!

Sean E.
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Old 07-27-02, 03:16 PM   #9 (permalink)
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I already posted my opinion on hybridization on the first thread, and don't take me for being a nitpicker because of this post, but there actually is a variety of cat people keep as pets (don't remember the name, bengal maybe?) that is a cross-breed between the domestic cat and a small wild cat species (possibly ocelot, not sure), so selective breeding elsewhere in the animal kingdom isn't necessarily limited to linebreeding, hybrids exist there too.
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Old 07-27-02, 03:38 PM   #10 (permalink)
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Sean_.E. wrote
Why is everyone argueing?
Sean .. you shouldn't take this as an argument .. this is an airing of opinion. (ya .. I know, subtle difference) Now I don't think bringing issues like abortion and divorce are a good idea .. That IS inviting an argument.

But let's face it .. the issue of hybridization will be resolved by the people who buy the animals .. if there is an active market for hybrids, someone will do it .. if those of us that are right ( ) are the majority, there won't be money in it, and it won't be done. Well, won't be done on a large scale anyway.

So there you go .. no argument .. see, we all have big smiles on our faces as we try to rip each other apart.

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Old 07-27-02, 04:09 PM   #11 (permalink)
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Also folks....

Keep in mind that the whole species classification model is man-made. Animals don't always necessarily follow the model to a tee either. I mean, the current definition of a species is a like organism that can reproduce and produce fertile offspring. Well then, I guess that makes corns and kings the same species! I Lamproelaphe guess?!!

Sure prezygotic and postzygotic barriers to inter and intra species breeding exist in the wild, but how many of those are also man-made? Mountains may be natural, but vast stretches of urban wasteland isn't. Also, keeping snakes in captivity and breeding them and letting EVERY SINGLE baby survive (including runts and kinks etc etc) isn't very natural either. Promoting weak genes may be more harmful than "hybrids". But that doesn't seem to matter, now does it. Why have a clutch/litter of 20 snakes where only 5 would normally live? That's only 1/4 of the profits!! Better to have all 20 live AT ALL COSTS! Then the profits are much bigger so we can get more snakes to artificially breed in captivity to further perpetuate our "unnatural" hobby.

Just a different side. Do whatever you want to do as long as you treat the animals as you would want to be treated.
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Old 07-27-02, 06:08 PM   #12 (permalink)
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Also, keeping snakes in captivity and breeding them and letting EVERY SINGLE baby survive (including runts and kinks etc etc) isn't very natural either.
Very good point Jeff
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Old 07-29-02, 06:48 PM   #13 (permalink)
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well ok iv bin reading this here whohaa for about 20 minutes(I READ SLOOOWWW) lol but anyway ive seen many cat hybrids as someone mentioned(bengals etc) and personally i like em as do i like some hybrid snakes like the borneo bateaters (burmXretic) and feel that they are very beautiful snakes as are some cute little hybrid dogs that are on the market today. And i find it to be more of a problem to inbreed snakes(an accepted practice) than to hybridize!but if ya dont agree with it dont buy it and if ya dont mind it and you like the result of a particular hybridization than get it cause it could end up being the best snake ya ever had,i cant eveen tell ya how many stories of dogs ive heard were it was the best dog they ever had and they wouldnt have traded it for the world and when ya asked them what it was they so oh just a mutt! or "hybrid" if you prefer!!!
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Old 07-30-02, 04:25 AM   #14 (permalink)
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Thank you

I respect your right to have a differing opinion than mine.Thanks for your input.that is what this really is, a DISCUSSION. I will, of course defend my position vehemently, but frankly, I am encouraged by the amount of feedback and the interest shown by forum members on this subject. thanks again.

Fred Albury
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Old 07-30-02, 07:49 AM   #15 (permalink)
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hmm well my opinion doesnt mean much, but if we didnt allow hybrids in nature then we have basically ellimanated over half of the worlds population. You yourself are a hybrid, unless you can prove Native Indian descent. This also goes for Natives and tribes of other countries in the dawn of time. Hybrids are apart of nature. It is how nature builds a stronger creature. It is also how nature elleminates a creature. What frightens me is the idea of cloneing. What is to keep a goverment somewhere from mixing a supersnake (a boa or anacondia) with the venom abilities of say a pit viper! Man I could see that as a really bad B flick movie staring Warren Batey. Ahh well
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