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Old 09-08-03, 02:08 PM   #46 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by Aaron_S
[B]Invictus-I believe your snake comming to you at the end of the bed as a hide not as it's owner which it enjoys to be around. On a made bed it is wide open. So if your snake sees you in at the other end it goes towards you to hide and feel secure.
Who said the bed was made? He had plenty of places and opportunities to hide. I should also note that he came up and placed his head on top of my lap, not beside it. That doesn't look to me too much like he was interested in hiding.

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It tried to put as much of its body against yours cause you should know snakes prefer close quarters and close hides so they can feel something on all sides.
Last I checked, corn snakes were commonly found in open fields in the wild. I'd say they're pretty used to open spaces.

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So I think you just misinterperted(sp?) your snakes natural instinct to hide for emotion.
I never once insinuated that he was feeling emotion. I said he appears to like human contact. That doesn't mean he loves me. It means he finds good stimulation in being around something so large and complex or even just as warm as humans. As for my misinterpretation, you very well could be right. I won't deny that for a second. The bottom line is, as I said above, not one person here is an expert in snake behavior. We all have our own theories that stem from our own observances and our own experiences.
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Old 09-08-03, 02:14 PM   #47 (permalink)
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Its all up to the person whether they need to handle their snake or not. For the snake, the less handling the better off they are. This may not suit a person however, for instance one that does educational work most certainly does not want a snake that is nervous when handled. It can also be useful in terms of safety to acclimate any of the larger snakes such as burms or retics to being handled while they are still a manageable size so that they are easier to work with when they are giants. I personally don't handle any of my snakes other than for general maintenance or photography.

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Originally posted by Invictus
However, the way the argument was presented, it was portraying ALL snakes as being stressed when you handle them. This is simply not the case.
I'm going to have to disagree. No snakes enjoy being handled, hence it present -some- level of stress on them. Not all snakes are highly stessed by it, and some tolerate it extremely well, but it is not something they enjoy, hence it must cause -some- level of stress, though not apparently evident. Snakes have to be highly stressed before the exhibit signs of it.
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Old 09-08-03, 02:19 PM   #48 (permalink)
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Originally posted by chondro python
[B]I personaly find it hard to debate with ppl that have just a feew years under there bet I say this meaning less then 5. Simply cause they are still in the my snake loves me stage of the herp world. witch is fine we have all started there even I thaught my snakes loved me B4 then I learnd the painfull truth.
Well, I find it hard to debate with someone who has the spelling and grammar level of a 5 year old. It's called a spell checker, chondro. Look into it.

That said, this is the most pompous and arrogant drivel I have ever seen spew forth from you. (And people say I'm bad!) All of a sudden, you're a godlike being of knowledge, and you find it hard to debate with people who have less than a certain amount of experience which you, the almighty lord of snake behavior knowledge, has arbitrarily decided is enough knowledge and experience to keep up with you in a debate? And you are the keeper of the "painful truth"? Well show me the painful truth, oh god of knowledge. And back it up with a behavioral study.

By the way, I know people who have been herp keeers for 6 months who know more about herps than some people I've known who have been raising them for decades. So don't assume that because you've decided that 5 years is the magical time for people to keep up with you in a debate, that they don't know something that maybe you don't.

Now before you jump down my throat about being pompous here, I was proving a point; you are still learning too, I guarantee it. You have no more right to say that your opinion in this matter is fact than anyone else who thinks snakes are capable of love. You don't have proof, and neither do they. But then again, I don't have the magical 5 years of experience, so I guess I just have to take your word for it.

Sorry if this post seems hostile. I felt yours was hostile. I tend to fight fire with fire, especially in a debate. I look forward to your reply.
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Old 09-08-03, 02:20 PM   #49 (permalink)
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Aaron You oviously did not read my entire post. Because it was not one snake under one rock it has been many snakes under many rocks and today they were not even under rocks they were all out sunning them selves in the open.

P.S I was posting under the wifes nic this morning. Forgot to switch log ins sorry for the confusion

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Old 09-08-03, 03:44 PM   #50 (permalink)
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Old 09-08-03, 04:24 PM   #51 (permalink)
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Although we cannot talk to animals people HAVE done studies on this and I believe it was Eyespy (forgive me if I am wrong please Eyespy) who brought up the fact that the just don't seem to have ABILITY or "brain parts" to even make love or emotion. I found this single qoute on an animal website and I believe it is along the lines of what Eyespy had mentioned in another thread:

"The snake's brain (in structure) is very similar to a bird's brain but the snakes lacks the enlarged cerebral hemispheres found in birds and mammals. The cerebral is the part of the brain, which contains the learning. Sine the absence of the cerebral hemispheres, it is correct to say that snakes aren't very intelligent. But they can learn a fair amount. Some snakes have learnt when their feeding times are and often the owner will find them waiting. "


If the brain needed to make love and other emotions, or other learning processes isn't there, how can people argue and say it is?

Some interesting articles:
http://www.cs.rochester.edu/users/fa...el_Potter.html
http://www.lasuerte.org/omesnakes.htm
http://www.myiguana.com/emandphyl.html


Some of these articles are for the point they may feel some are against I guess, some have nothing to do with the topic but are interesting anyways. LOL. Reading is good!

I honestly don't KNOW if they can feel or not. But I do feel that sometimes over estimating their feelings can be a bad husbandry practice because frankly some snakes ARE stressed out by handling and low levels of constant stress (which if a snake has they may still feed and act normal, doesnt mean the low levels aren't there) has been known to cause problems in many species of animals. So lets say a person buys a snake and "loves" it so much it ends up stressing out and eventually not eating and dying? I would think the safest thing to tell people is that snakes are solitary and handling is fine, but not like your dog or gerbil.

Anyways good topic folks. As for me? I prefer to leave them alone for the most part, and handle only when needed basically. They do fine without it and so far I haven't heard evidence to suggest they NEED it, so they go without it from me.

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Old 09-08-03, 05:48 PM   #52 (permalink)
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Of course they do not need it, but what if the desire is there?

If one did not want to be bothered by human interaction then they would slither off into the opposite direction. I have a couple that do just that. Surprisingly enough however, one of my most stubborn feeders as of late was taken to the herp society meeting last night for a presentation. She was handled quite a bit, passed around from person to person because they had never seen a Savu python in person before. And what do you know, she STILL ate later that evening.

We have snakes that lift their bodies and climb up without even wanting them to, LOL. Morti will go to straighten the pvc perches in MacBeth's (the male Moluccan) enclosure and he will come straight out to Morti instead of going sideways and behind the enclosure and tv.

Need? Certainly not. Want? Could be, it seems (I said SEEMS!!) that many enjoy it. As soon as they discontinue to view a human as a threat, one would imagine that they 'enjoy' the exercise we offer them.

I would also like to add the behaviour of some snakes around certain people. The previous keeper of MacBeth swore up and down about the vileness of the animal. How he had bit him in the face several times. Morti has had MacBeth for over a year now and has not been bitten once. What does that say? That Morti is a better handler? Well, yes, I think he is, but then I'm partial, hehe. But I do think that some snakes have preferences, like birds do, for certain people. Why does my Irian Jaya always strain to get back to me if someone else is holding her? Many behaviour characteristics are present but not quite explainable because of their inability to communicate on a level we can understand, or vice versa.

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Old 09-08-03, 06:10 PM   #53 (permalink)
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It could say they were underfeeding it.

Not that I am saying he hasn't changed but alot of behaviours are taken as something else. A sick snake will appear to newbies as "tame and friendly" when in reality it is just weak....sometimes...or a snake kept too cold will also be super "friendly" because everytime people handle him its his only chance to get warm....etc etc...My male snow loki always WANTS to come out but that doesn't mean he can express or even feel love. Enjoyment of stimui? Maybe. Hoping the person who ALWAYS brings him food is going to have more food? Most likely.

I honestly do not believe they strive for human interaction. Why? Because snakes in the wild would display some behavior suggesting they need companionship. Sure garters do but they are not the majority of snakes, and have specilized brumation habits. Birds do require human interaction, and crave it. But this is because they display a need for companionship in the wild as well, if not more so.

My personal thoughts are this, its all well and good to feel like they love us, but I almost promise that the most friendly, human craving snake in the world could easily go on living alone if heating and food opportunities presented themselves, never seeking out another human. In the end these animals evolved to be hunters and killers, not pack animals and not companion animals.

Not to say they can't be, but I think this says alot about what we expect from them now. We would all love to think they love us back but in reality they are living off insticnt IMHO and the same one that's our best friend could just as easily live in the wild assuming other factors don't count (i.e. knowing how to hunt etc) So in some aspects they do depend and need us, but I think in general they could care less.

IMHO.

Marisa

Last edited by marisa; 09-08-03 at 06:13 PM..
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Old 09-08-03, 06:28 PM   #54 (permalink)
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Its all up to the person whether they need to handle their snake or not. For the snake, the less handling the better off they are.
I don't mean to be rude or anything. Rather I am just asking a question. How exactly do you know this? I mean of course snakes can't talk.

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I'm going to have to disagree. No snakes enjoy being handled, hence it present -some- level of stress on them. Not all snakes are highly stessed by it, and some tolerate it extremely well, but it is not something they enjoy, hence it must cause -some- level of stress, though not apparently evident.
Again, I don't know if there is enough information to present that as a fact. Also, I've heard and seen on the discovery channel that a little bit of stress in captive animals is good for them. This is due to the fact that it keeps them active and aware of their surroundings as they would be in the while, or something of the like.
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Old 09-08-03, 06:34 PM   #55 (permalink)
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Also, I would like someone to prove my way of thinking wrong. I am not saying this in a way where my opinion is king of all opinions. I am saying this is how I see it and would like to know where I am wrong to improve my way of thinking. I feel that occassional handling is good for the snake. Becoming 'acclimated' to the presence of human beings, in my opinion, is essential. I mean contact at one point or the other is inevitable. Moving cages, cleaning cages, feeding if you remove them to a feed box, or even opening the enclosure for feeding. Human interaction is not limited to this only, however these are just instances of interaction that come to mind and the time being. Now wouldn't you think that if a snake is already acclimated to you, these occassions would be much easier on them? Seeing the human as not being a threat would also remove any fear when they fear, smell, or see you coming, would it not?
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