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Old 09-07-03, 07:29 PM   #31 (permalink)
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I dont think so. snakes just wana be snakes we dont need to intervean with there daily lives. I see alot of your guy's point but I was refering to handeling it every day like 2 hours a day I have seen ppl take out there ball python for an hour then put it back and affter super when they do there home work or watch tv they take it out for another 2-3 hours that is the needles handeling I am reffering to.
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Old 09-07-03, 07:32 PM   #32 (permalink)
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Do snakes get bored?
I believe they do..mine seem to like to kick back with a good book once and a while

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Old 09-07-03, 08:08 PM   #33 (permalink)
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lol good one chris I love that pic.
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Old 09-07-03, 08:25 PM   #34 (permalink)
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Me and my husband have many snakes, and hardly handle them. We have a couple of favorites that we end up handling more than others... We both just work to often to have much "personal" interaction time with them. As far as handling stressing the snake out, I think it depends on its personality. We do have a couple of ball pythons that eat much better when they are not messed with.. but overall everyone else eats like a pig regardless.
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Old 09-07-03, 09:23 PM   #35 (permalink)
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Old 09-07-03, 10:06 PM   #36 (permalink)
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...

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I dont think so. snakes just wana be snakes we dont need to intervean with there daily lives.
I totally agree! Exactly!



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We do have a couple of ball pythons that eat much better when they are not messed with
And exactly again. I concur.
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Old 09-08-03, 07:16 AM   #37 (permalink)
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I think its just human nature to want to interact with their pet. Mostly all the responces here have been trying to put human emotions with the reptiles when thats just not the way it is. We would love to think our reptiles love us... but there is no real way to prove or disprove it. I say its best left up to each individual (I can also vouch for corn snakes and leos knowing your voice though... my voice stimulates almost all of my pets in fact... both the vertebrates and invertebrates)

Does a reptile NEED to be handled... no way. Does a reptile LIKE to be handled? Hard to say... I haven't learned how to talk to the animals yet

BUT When I handle a snake and its not heaving for breath or acting frightened (ie. biting, hissing, trying to run away from me) I interpret that as the snake TOLERATING me. I do think they enjoy the body warmth... I have worn a ball python like a bracelet for the span of 2 or 3 hours (granted, this was a very placid and well-behaved specimen)

The only time I would say handling is MANDATORY is if you are trying to keep a specimen "friendly" (educational shows, zoos, etc.) We all know that they become accustomed to being handled and seem to no longer see us as a threat. Even my ultra-hostile texas rat snake has calmed down now and let me handle him without a fuss when I had to move him to his new tank (this was a snake that used to strike madly at me anytime I was within 6 feet of his cage!)

For this reason I could see a pet shop owner telling their employees that its important to handle the reptiles... after all, its a lot harder to sell a beardie that hisses and bites than it is to sell a beardie that sits in your hand and smiles right?
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Old 09-08-03, 07:44 AM   #38 (permalink)
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I agree with Chris's post entirely.

A lot of times snake owners would love to say "Oh look my BP is sitting still on me, he MUST love being held and love me!" When in reality they are just attaching their own emotions to a snake that has no emotions as we do and was trying to get warm or hide (not moving is a defense mechanisim sometimes!)

Again I agree with Chris mentioning TOLERATE. There is a huge differance between "oh my snake loves handling" and a snake tolerating handling. If snakes were emotional and needed human companionship I believe they would seek it out and show behaviours that agree with this in the wild. But most snakes do not even enjoy spending time with their own species, let alone people. Snakes had NO reason to develop emotions the way humans have them. They need to eat, drink, breed and sleep. Period. Emotions and relationships are not developed in animals when they would get in the way. Snakes are killers, hunters and breeders to propogate their species, but most are solitary.

Do I think its important to handle them? No. We hold a couple of our snakes because they are favorites and WE enjoy handling them, they do tolerate us well. But a few of my snakes get handled less, like maybe twice per month during cleaning. It doens't affect them either way, and they aren't dying of lonely broken hearts because they would prefer me to leave them alone in the first place.

The only other reason I can see to handle other than human enjoyment is that sometimes exercise in gravid female corns helps out a lot I have heard with avoiding egg binding. But we have a large exercise cage for this.

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Old 09-08-03, 07:50 AM   #39 (permalink)
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Also- My snakes ALL come out when they hear me whacking mice. I do not believe this means we have a special relationship or that they will listen next time I need a shoulder to cry on. It means they have become conditioned to the sound and vibrations coming from the whacking area/board and know food is soon coming. It's not a miracle or some special relationship. It's a simply a conditioned behaviour that any snake can develop.

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Old 09-08-03, 09:21 AM   #40 (permalink)
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This morning i went out herping and found about 12-15 snakes mostly waters and garters, one thing that all the findings had in common was every finding found two or more specimens together. In one spot i found four northern waters. Now before today i also thought that snakes were solitary animals. But when i think back over the summer and all the snakes i found basking and flipping rock, logs and tins I remember that many times more then one snake would be found under the same hide these spiecies include Northern waters, ribbons, red bellies, garters, milks, fox, and northern browns snakes. So i have to question weather snakes are naturally as solitary as we all think?? It could be possible that snakes in general are slightly more social then we give them credit for. Also note that these observations took place all summer long with findings of as many as 2 hundred snakes this summer.

Jason

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Old 09-08-03, 10:22 AM   #41 (permalink)
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I realy like the way this debat is turning.it is stuff like this that puls the best out of ppl and we can realy see who has ben doing this for some time now.

I personaly find it hard to debate with ppl that have just a feew years under there bet I say this meaning less then 5. Simply cause they are still in the my snake loves me stage of the herp world. witch is fine we have all started there even I thaught my snakes loved me B4 then I learnd the painfull truth.

I think it is just harder because both types of herpers are strong set on there point. But as we noticed when the experience steped it the debate took a turn for the best cause the isue was discused in a maner that envolves no emotin just facts and the pros and cons.

You see it is importen that the experienced herpers participat in the everyday debat be cause we need to keep in mind that there is all was some one lookig for knowlege and most likly wil read our debats.

A big thank's to every one that participated.

to all older ssnakessmembers is it just me or do you see or debates being more clean and informative then in the past. MAN this site rules.
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Old 09-08-03, 11:24 AM   #42 (permalink)
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word of the day: anthropomorphism - Attribution of human motivation, characteristics, or behavior to inanimate objects, animals, or natural phenomena

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Old 09-08-03, 11:27 AM   #43 (permalink)
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Thank you I can never rember that word when I need it now I am wrighting it down thank's again
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Old 09-08-03, 12:07 PM   #44 (permalink)
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Invictus-I believe your snake comming to you at the end of the bed as a hide not as it's owner which it enjoys to be around. On a made bed it is wide open. So if your snake sees you in at the other end it goes towards you to hide and feel secure. It tried to put as much of its body against yours cause you should know snakes prefer close quarters and close hides so they can feel something on all sides. So I think you just misinterperted(sp?) your snakes natural instinct to hide for emotion.

Christina-You finding more then 1 snake under the same hide doesn't mean they are exactly social. Maybe it was just the best hide around or for body heat during the cool times in the moring?
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Old 09-08-03, 02:02 PM   #45 (permalink)
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by OttawaChris
We would love to think our reptiles love us... but there is no real way to prove or disprove it.

Well, I won't speak for anyone else's posts, but I never personally said anything about my snakes loving me. I said that any animal, when raised from birth, can become accustomed to, to the point of "liking" certain stimuli. I don't think they are capable of love. I do think a snake knows when it is content though.

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Does a reptile NEED to be handled... no way. Does a reptile LIKE to be handled? Hard to say... I haven't learned how to talk to the animals yet
This is probably the most intelligent thing anyone has said so far. The bottom line is, even those of you who are saying that snakes only TOLERATE handling are pi$$ing in the wind just as much as the people who are saying their snakes "love" them. None of us have any imperical scientific data to support or deny any claim. This much can be said scientifically though - if you handle them more, most species will become less likely to bite. So, like Chris said, it's a personal choice. When I see some hard data from behavioral studies under scientific conditions, I will say definitively whether I believe snakes can feel affection.

However, I am reminded of an hour long Discovery Channel special where a guy proved that even Tiger Sharks can show an actual liking towards human stumuli. And it was done in the wild, so don't try to say the sharks were trained. They weren't. Did the sharks "love" this scientist? I seriously doubt it. Did they enjoy the stimuli he was provding? Absolutely. I'd say the same could probably be said for snakes.
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