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Old 07-24-02, 01:41 PM   #16 (permalink)
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Old 07-26-02, 01:08 AM   #17 (permalink)
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I dont see anything really wrong with hybridization. I think that as long as there are still ppl who breed pure or in the same subspecies than everything is fine. that way there are the pures and the hybrids and you can choose what u like and not have to deal with the other. hybridization is fine within reason of course.
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Old 07-26-02, 07:38 AM   #18 (permalink)
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Jeff and Correy as well as the rest of you all have vaild points to make on the hot topic hybridization. But it come down to, every-one has a right to thier own opinion. As for me I am still undesided but do entertain the idea of the Amazon X Emerald.

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Old 07-26-02, 10:39 AM   #19 (permalink)
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Heyas Fred
My problem with hybrids is Mr. Joe Bubblegumpopper that buy the hybrid and breeds it, produces it, then sells it to Mr. Whocares and the genetics are lost to the unsuspecting buyer down the road. If they have to breed them they and any buyers should be responsible for id chips, unfortunately down the road someone won't so I'm against hybrids. JMHO
Old 07-26-02, 12:24 PM   #20 (permalink)
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Originally posted by Jeff ********
IMO Hybrids are definatly cool, and if we can play god and incubate our animals eggs, why cant we match make for them!! just my 0.2cents
Incubating eggs is NOT playing god, it is simulating nature. Captive breeding programs assist nature in the survival of species. It cannot be compared in any way to creating hybrids. Those are not naturally occurring, hence the term "playing god". And once hybridzation of a species occurs, the threat of its extincition as a pure species is just as real as the extinction of a species due to habitat destruction, overcollection, etc etc.
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Old 07-26-02, 03:18 PM   #21 (permalink)
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I admit I don't know the first thing about snakes - when you talk about hybridizing you are talking about breeding two different species?? If you are - then you can't use the cat and/or dog argument. Crossbreeding cats/dogs can be liken to breeding different colour morphs - not breeding two different species. You aren't creating a new species when you breed a poodle and a boxer - just a morph, but still a dog.

I agree with Lindsay - creating hybrids (which is a rarity in the wild) puts a species at risk. If wild populations are decimated and captive ones are hybridized - that species is gone.

Breeding for albinoism/colour may certainly weaken the gene pool - but we also breed for non-agressive behavior and lack of fear. The colours and temperments we are culturing are not for the benefit of the wild animal. Bright red bearded dragons and chameleons that are docile would not survive in the wild. I'm getting a little off topic - but the average keeper cannot expect to produce animals for captive realease. Captive release programs must be closely monitored to produce animals that will thrive in the wild and not put indeginous animals at risk (either through disease and/or behavior). That being said, captive propagation does lessen the strain on wild-caught populations (obviously!).

So, by breeding for colour and temperment we can increase the "attractiveness" of CB over WC. Breeding for a new species is not necessay - that kind of activity is up on top of my "scary" list along with cloning. We have no business playing there - it crosses over the line.

If I'm correct in assuming you're talking about breeding two different species - are the offspring fertile? Or is it like breeding donkeys and horses?

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Old 07-26-02, 04:00 PM   #22 (permalink)
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I'm only against hybrid when it's done with animal that are rare in captivity (like diamond X jungle or angolan X ball). It seem to me that it's done for some people cause they can't find another one of the same species to breed with so they find another species... and I think it's reason to do so.

They have already hybridyze cats and dog. For exemple, they have cross wulf and dog, cat and african serval or leopard cat)
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Old 07-26-02, 04:29 PM   #23 (permalink)
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A hairless cat or a all white snake that used to be black and gold.. If people are against hybrids then they should also be against the support of captive breeding of snakes with MUTATIONS...
Ahhh .. Jeff, there's the rub. You're absolutely right. It is quite hypocrytical to say "no hybrids" and yet drool over the latest :designer" snake. I guess it's like my offgassing rants. You can't stop all of it, but hopefully you can draw the line somewhere.

I'm like everyone else .. I'd kill for a piebald, I'd probably drool over the emerald X amazon someone mentioned, but I still have a problem with stepping over that line and actually crossing species. I'd like to think that if I was offered the aformentioned (yay .. big words) cross, that I would have the scruples to say no.
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Old 07-26-02, 04:38 PM   #24 (permalink)
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um i'm neutural don't care i'm not into hybreds unless there closeley related
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Old 07-27-02, 12:57 AM   #25 (permalink)
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Jeff ******** and others:HYBRIDS and more HYBRIDS

Jeff ******** and others, this case the practice of crossing two snakes from the same family but diffrent locales(i.e. Nicaraguan and Colombian Boa constrictors)
Crossing two snakes that are NOT from th e same group, and do not share similar habitats nor geographic ranges(I.e. anaconda andArgentineboa)

Cannot be compared to someone line breeding dogs or cats to create a diffrent look, WHY? Because even in line breeding cats, you are still dealing with Felix domesticus, domestic cats.
NOW if you were to take, lets say a BOBCAT and cross it with a house cat, then that would be hyrbridization.Plain ans simple

WHAT is going on in the herpetocultural community is just this:
You have anumber of breeders, eager for profits and basically either bored or wanting to produce something"NEW" at any cost, who are commited to crossing snakes to get somethingNEW.

Do you think for one minute that they would cross them if they thought that what they produced would look like either parent 100%?What would be the rational behind that?
No..they do so so that they may nake something NEW

The PUBLIC has an insatiable desire and hunger for NEW things.
Witness Reptiles magazine, and the many new morphs(Not hybrids but morphs of non crossbred snakes) that grace the front cover. The PUBLIC eats this up

NOW realize this:

most peole that are new to this hobby, that may be buying these snakes, have NO idea of the natural history of the animal, where they come from, what the area looks like, the temps, the humidity,...NOTHING.
We haver separated the animal from its natural envionment. HOW many of these people have ever gone out or will ever go out to collect snakes in the wild and seee, first hand , what the enviornemt they live in islike, and make the connection.

Answer: NOT MANY

The hybrid crap is basically part of it.We now help create animals which are an abomination, which would never exists in the wild(BallXBlood...please...) and which, when bred tiogether produce genetic hodegpodge

Someone here said it is going to become more popular in the future. I guess then the people that are heavily into it now will be the ones laughing to the bank. But then...........thats what this is all about....................makeing money.....turning a profit..................haveing bragging rights...............
The same thing happedn with pot bellied pigs and brids.....the hobby gets consumed with those that desire to make this their livelyhood, no matterwhat the cost to us all.

I choose not to buy them
You must choose for yourself
Remember, what is NEW today to you
will be old in 3 years time
And no longer the novelty it was

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Old 07-28-02, 09:13 PM   #26 (permalink)
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let the genes where they are(NATURES WAY)
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Old 07-28-02, 10:25 PM   #27 (permalink)
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Also folks....
Keep in mind that the whole species classification model is man-made. Animals don't always necessarily follow the model to a tee either. I mean, the current definition of a species is "a like organism that can reproduce and produce fertile offspring". Well then, I guess that makes corns and kings the same species! Lamproelaphe I guess?!!

Sure prezygotic and postzygotic barriers to inter and intra species breeding exist in the wild, but how many of those are also man-made? Mountains may be natural, but vast stretches of urban wasteland isn't. Also, keeping snakes in captivity and breeding them and letting EVERY SINGLE baby survive (including runts and kinks etc etc) isn't very natural either. Promoting weak genes may be more harmful than "hybrids". But that doesn't seem to matter, now does it. Why have a clutch/litter of 20 snakes where only 5 would normally live? That's only 1/4 of the profits!! Better to have all 20 live AT ALL COSTS! Then the profits are much bigger so we can get more snakes to artificially breed in captivity to further perpetuate our "unnatural" hobby.

Just a different side. Do whatever you want to do as long as you treat the animals as you would want to be treated.
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Old 07-31-02, 08:12 PM   #28 (permalink)
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Well here's my 3 cents (yes 3 )

I am by far no animal rights activist and I dont love all animals. I can tolerate most but some (ie HAMSTERS) really get under my skin. As far as hybridization, I think it's cruel to the animal and should not be done. We already "play god" via incubation times, breeding times, captive environment etc, but this is fairly harmless if taken repsonsibly. In my opinion, hybridization is just a line that shouldnt be crossed. We [the human race] are already using genetics to our advantage in creating something NEW as Aztec Fred stressed. The list is already rising with new hybrids such as the wolf/german shephard, why add something else? Before you know it we'll be seeing OctoParrots and IguanaRats in the pet stores. Hybridization is just another line that in my opinion should not be crossed.
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Old 08-13-02, 04:24 PM   #29 (permalink)
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Hi all, I just wanted to point something out really quickly... With everyone speaking and comparing on cat and dog purebreds against snakes etc....I have learned through vet work that more purbreed dogs end up sick with disease... I.e Rottwielers (sp?) are more prone to cancer then a shepard X Rotti. Mix breeds of both dogs and cats almost seem healthier. I do realize that this is a very broad statement and doesn't have much to do with topic, But something to think about
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Old 08-14-02, 10:37 AM   #30 (permalink)
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Well to me honestly think about it at one point and time ALL snakes where wild until someone decided hey i,d like that as a pet and poof it begins.
Well unless you where there to see the parents of those wild babys mate then you really dont know for sure just what you have and over the long haul no one does.
Now sure joebob has a surinam and this is a STANDARD to what you call a surinam nothing more. it very well may have a bit of guyanese in it but if it looks to be what the STANDARD surinam looks like then thats what we call it . In MHO they could all be mixed up .
All i know for sure is i dont knowingly buy the mixed breed snakes , i dont breed them iether.
Sure it sounds messed up but if you think about it maybe is was ment to be ?????
Just my 1 cent worth
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