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Old 08-18-03, 07:37 AM   #16 (permalink)
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That poor snake is on a poster we use to show why we do not feed live. Even people who do not like snakes find it offensive, and pity the snake.

The science center lost a few snakes because of live feeding accidents. When asked why they feed live, tha answer was they could not find frozen rats. It is easy to make a live rat dead, as compared to making a frozen one stunned.

We also have a few posters with peoplle who were bitten by venomous snakes, because kids just dont understand that there is nothing "COOL" about keeping a cobra or viper when it tags you. It takes a tremendous amount of skill and discipline to keep venomous snakes.
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Old 08-18-03, 07:55 AM   #17 (permalink)
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That pic is horrible and a great pic to show why not to feed live. I have to save that so i can show the people i know who insist on feeding live. *shudders* that poor snake.
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Old 08-18-03, 07:56 AM   #18 (permalink)
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Here is a pic of the results of live-feeding (note: this pic is rather appaling so please do not scroll down if you are sensitive to these issues)
god damn .... that freacking picture i see it everywhere .... is that all you can think of .... this is not because of live feeding this is because of a dumbass who left a freacking rat alone with a snake for what ??? 3 days come on ... the problem aint live feeding its irresponsible live feeding .... thats the only argument everyone have about live feeding Yes i do feed live prey to some of my snakes and I aint dumb enough to leave a rat unwatched with one of my snake actually i hold live prey while i give it to my snake ... everyone tells me one day you will get bit ... YEAH SO ???? snakes do bite ... if your too afraid to get bit dont own a snake .... its a savage predator not a golden puppy ...

sry im just so f***n tired of seing that ugly picture . why dont you put a picture of a child with a destroyed face and say : DONT BUY DOGS
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Old 08-18-03, 08:04 AM   #19 (permalink)
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Some people are so ignorante! I must agree pet stores suck the A double crooked letter.
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Old 08-18-03, 10:29 AM   #20 (permalink)
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mk-ultra,
Although I can appreciate how some animals will only take live, your type of mentality always amazes me. Once you restrain the animal to a captive environment, it becomes just that - a captive animal, and ceases to be a "savage predator." It is our responsibility as the keeper to provide the animal with a safe environment - this does not include tossing in a potentially live threatening variable. You supervise you say? I would like to see you get in between the bite to the snake's eye that a mouse struggling for its life is more than capable to inflict. It's just not worth it, especially if your animal will take f/t. One quick bite is all it takes for a fatal infection.
It's also not merely a matter of the snake's safety from physical trauma: f/t prey items are lower in parasites after having been frozen and are more easily digested (owing to the tissue damage from growing ice crystals).
The issue at hand is not that snake's make bad pets so I really cannot fathom the relevance of your "don't buy dogs" comment.
But anyway, do what you like, I have no problem with what you do; what you eat won't make me fat, so what do I care?? Just understand that your methods may not be the best for your animals.
I apologize if you don't like the pic but I wasn't expecting anyone to like it, it's a difficult image for us herp-lovers. But it is a perfect representation of the old adage "A picture is worth a thousand words."
Cheers,
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Old 08-18-03, 11:27 AM   #21 (permalink)
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i agree with some things that you say ... but the fact that i really dont like is showing this picture saying this is what happen when you feed live prey which is a complete exageration of what can happen . I keep arguing the god damn media when they exagerate everything about reptile like the story of the 4f ball python that scared 2 cats that was recently posted somewhere on ssnakess.com . They were saying that the ball would have eaten both of the adult cats bla bla bla wich is completely crazy . so please dont go down to their level just tell the thruth ... I have heard stories about people letting their snakes pets die because they didnt wanna eat f/t or even fresh killed because they were too scared to feed live prey . I have developped i pretty good technique with my gf to switch live to freshly killed and then f/t and it is working very well with all my snakes that doesnt eat f/t .

I present live prey to snakes head first from the top snakes always get the head first once they are used to that i start trying with freshly killed then f/t it always works ... i dont go force feeding a snake or stuff like that

So all im saying is that there is a way to say thing and tell the thruth about stuff

Leaving a snake with a live prey unsupervised in a closed container is very dangerous ... giving a live prey item even with supervision can be dangerous for the snake as it could get bit if it misses his target ... giving a rodent by the tail while holding it in midair is most likely NOT to cause anything if you do it carefully
( i never had one single bite from that technique on me or on the snake ) and I would also like to add " not feeding a snake for a long period (depending on species and size) will cause serious health problem and will kill your reptile".

Everyone do things differently and im really sure your reptiles arent healtier then mine or anyone else that takes good care of them ( im not saying they are less :P )
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Old 08-18-03, 04:35 PM   #22 (permalink)
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stkkts, the stick and the hook are always aside but with venomous there's no need for that. Once the live mouse is thrown in the cage, after 1 minute is dead.
'
RMBolton you cannot and must not feed frozens to venomous snakes.
Poison of the snake must do it's work on the live prey.
I give live prey only to my venomous snakes.
If the snake won't strike in the next minute, i remove the live mouse.
I can understand when a venomous snake is hungry.
When i see the signs i throw the live mice.
Like i said previously, after 1 min. is dead.
~Greg~
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Old 08-18-03, 08:33 PM   #23 (permalink)
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Interesting point, I have no experience with venomous so I am certainly not an authority on the matter.

mk-ultra,
I am sick to death of that pic too, but, from the responses, it is evident that some people haven't seen it. Granted, that rodent must have had a fair amount of time to inflict that damage. The live prey/f-t prey debate will go on as long as there is a captive herp trade and I suppose everyone has to just agree to disagree. I prefer to take the route with the least amount of risk; however, if you have an animal that only takes live than the options are pretty limited.
Cheers mk-ultra,
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Old 08-18-03, 08:43 PM   #24 (permalink)
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If you cannot feed f/t to venomous why have i seen Steve and Wes from Australia Zoo feeding f/t to their venomous? Browns, Tiapan, Fear Snakes, ect... I belive you to be incorrect reptilesalonica. How bout all of you venomous keepers here? How do you feed your snakes. Live/stunned or f/t?
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Old 08-18-03, 08:52 PM   #25 (permalink)
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I've heard some venomous keepers say they feed f/t except for once in a while when they want to drain of the venom, whether this is a valid reason or not is a different matter.
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Old 08-18-03, 08:56 PM   #26 (permalink)
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RMBolton,
Well said

mk-ultra,
Sometimes you need to exaggerate to get the point across that feeding live should only be done if absolutely necessary. Often people don't get it unless you do. And I'm sure that many of the live keepers out there do not realize the risks and do leave their prey unattended... hence incidents like this happen.

enso,
Not a hot keeper so hopefully someone else will be able to answer your question... although I have heard that they need to excercise their venom via live feeding before somewhere. It is much safer I believe for venomous snakes to feed on live due to the fact that they just hit the prey once and wait for it to die, rather than to grab on and hold... this is the point where most accidents happen.
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Old 08-18-03, 09:00 PM   #27 (permalink)
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Linds, some venomous are strike and release and others are strike and hold, depending on species. Come on hot keepers, where are you.
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Old 08-19-03, 12:59 AM   #28 (permalink)
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The reason that venomous snakes must feed on live prey, is because the poison must circle through the arteries of the mouse.
If you could notice a bitten mouse from a venomous snake, will run like crazy until it dies. This way the poison goes everywhere in it's body and it helps the digestion proccess.
In an already dead mouse (frozen/thawed) the poison cannot circle like the way i described previously.
After all, Linds got the point. Most venomous snakes strike and release. Others that strike and hold, the prey animal cannot do much...it hasn't got the time to do it...dies immediatly.
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Old 08-19-03, 01:17 AM   #29 (permalink)
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mk-ultra - that picture obviously does not represent most cases of feeding live. The point of showing an EXTREME is to prevent whatever-it-is (in this case live feeding) so that extreme doesn't happen again. If you were trying to dissuade someone from leaving a 20ft snake with a human baby, you would have to point out the rare occurences that a snake has attacked/constricted a child. Obviously that's not the norm, but it happens, and to prevent it one must point out extreme cases.

Of course, you probably have the best method of feeding live (supervising and so on), but why take the risk? Just because there has never been a bite to you or the snake, does that mean there never will be? That's like people who don't dust their bugs. They say "well my lizard is still fine - if he starts to show signs of MBD then I will start dusting his food." Of course, if the snake WON'T eat f/t (after many tries for f/k) then one obviously has to resort to live. But I have the feeling that many "give in" sooner than they should - when they are steps away from converting their snake to f/t/k.

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