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Old 08-09-03, 10:47 AM   #16 (permalink)
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I guess you're refering to me
Matt, not at all, in fact I think I mentioned that this wasnít directed at the mods. The fact is by the time you shut down that thread yesterday, no more ideas were being debated; I was just making fun of those two jabronis. You did the just thing. You locked it up, but left the opinions for later debate. The only case in which I question a modís decision was a debate I was having with two democrats over in the colubrid forum. They were claiming that field collection depletes natural populations and I was claiming that it didnít. It was quite controversial. I made a post citing a case study in NC that showed hard facts that collection does not effect the populations. I then asked them to respond with facts, not opinions, showing that it did. When I came in the next day to see their answers, the entire thread was gone??? I assumed that someone had posted something off color after I went home that forced it to be deleted, but I am not sure. I donít care for the deleting of entire threads, but I see why you would want to lock one from time to time.
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What is not allowed is demeaning of peoples opinions / newer herpers questions etc.
Shane, I am behind you 100% on not degrading new members. That is completely uncalled for and not what I am addressing here. No one is born with the knowledge, everyone must learn. And if old heads only poke fun at newbie questions, they stop asking. Leads to health problems for the animals and possible danger to the keeper. On the demeaning of peopleís opinions, I donít follow that logic 100%. Example, young man asked about getting a burm a few weeks ago. Some yahoo came back and told him not to and quoted the average adult size to be 20 feet. I called that out to be total crap and it is. 20í snakes are as rare as henís teeth. Did I degrade his opinion, yes by all means. But he had no business trying to advise a young keeper if he is that ignorant to the subject matter. For the record, this guys was claiming to be experienced, I would be much more patient with a new keeper.
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Old 08-09-03, 10:53 AM   #17 (permalink)
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I guess I should elaborate on what sparked me to incite this thread. It was a statement made in the feeding dogs and cats poll in which some democrat stated we should all be ashamed because we debated this issue and that she was disappointed in the mods for allowing us to.
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Old 08-09-03, 12:17 PM   #18 (permalink)
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I totally agree that the debates are wonderful. I am constanly on my pc so as not to miss a thing when a good one comes on. Even if I don't post on it I still follow the entire thing. It would be ultimately cool if the name calling could stop though. Debating opinions & facts is one thing but degrading someone is quite another.
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Old 08-09-03, 02:13 PM   #19 (permalink)
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Example, young man asked about getting a burm a few weeks ago. Some yahoo came back and told him not to and quoted the average adult size to be 20 feet. I called that out to be total crap and it is. 20í snakes are as rare as henís teeth.
But that misses the F-N point completely. Who cares if the max size is only 19.5 feet. His/her (I didn't read it) point was probably that Burms get too big. Who cares if they were off by a couple feet. Their debate probably wasn't "exact average Burm size". It was probably "this animal is unsuited for you".
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Old 08-09-03, 02:23 PM   #20 (permalink)
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Who cares if they were off by a couple feet.
Males average 12 to 14 and todayís females will rarely go past 16. So itís a substantial amount, and my point is we do not need to fill new keepers heads with incorrect information. Very few keepers are suited to keep a 20í snake, I do not even have a means to keep one, but keeping a 14-footer is not that difficult. But I am not going to debate this all over again. We are here to talk about controversy.
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Old 08-09-03, 03:07 PM   #21 (permalink)
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debate is one thing as lng as it doesnt go to far. And why say they get twenty ft rather they do or not is unimportant. Why not describe what is involved with taking care of really big snakes and let him decide for himself
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Old 08-09-03, 03:21 PM   #22 (permalink)
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We can take this back over to the python thread if you like, but letís stay on track here.
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Old 08-09-03, 03:27 PM   #23 (permalink)
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We need to really think here on the whole meaning of DEBATE.
Debating is awesome it is a learning tool. I back that %100.
Using demeaning methods and name calling I do not support.
When debating it is necessary to read what you are opposing thoroughly and strike all points.
eg. The whole size issue.

The responder to the thread wrote it is not a good starter herp because it gets to a length of 20ft.
In response to that it would of been: Statisticly Burms only grow to 12 to 14ft and max 16ft not 20 ft. For this fact they are for more experienced herps.

This way you were are able to show the responder with the wrong info of length is corrected and you are still covering the whole subject of is a Burm a good starter for a herp keeper.

Debating is fun as long as it is kept to the main topic if it is strayed off the initial poster gets frustrated because their question is not answered and walks away knowing essentially nothing of what he/she wanted to know in the first place.

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Old 08-09-03, 03:29 PM   #24 (permalink)
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i think debateing over certern topics is a good thing untill it stops being about the issiue and about I AM RIGHT AND YOU ARE WRONG, also i find just reading a debate say about uhhh... i dont know for ex. about how big burms get. you get good info just reading it because yoy get a chance to read eatch oppinion and see why thats their opinion. but once it gets into people starting to assume the worse and start throwing out critisisum because they ran out of evendace to support there opinion now thats where it needs to stop. if you cant support your oppinion anymore then just stop posting insted and saying how someone is an idiot for thinking what they do.
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Old 08-09-03, 03:32 PM   #25 (permalink)
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Christina, you are too nice. Hit the bricks. Ha ha =)
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Old 08-09-03, 03:35 PM   #26 (permalink)
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Well, when itís my opinion that someone is an idiot, then I will express it. =) If they think I am a jerk cause I thought they were an idiot, then they will express that. Still an exchange of ideas.
More to the point it is an exchange of opinions rather than an exchange of facts. If someone has their facts wrong you can straighten them out without attacking them. *Psychobabble 101 -usually the reason someone will attack someone else is because they feel either threatened or they are insecure*. The right to express yourself (in writing or verbally) does not give you the right to attack or insult someone. One of the things I have noticed on these forums is that when I ask for advice what I get back is a mixed bag from very useful to out to lunch, and this comes from people of a wide variety of experience. Sometimes the out to lunch stuff is a result of ignorance (not knowing), other times I think it is a result of bravado (wanting to fit in). Also some times it comes from the fact that in that persons place, time, and experience it worked for them, but goes against the commonly accepted practice or knowledge. This doesnít mean they are some kind of low life (who could walk up under the belly of a snakeJ) that can be and should be freely insulted. One thing I have learn in my old age *old but not creaking* is that if you want to win someone to your side of a debate the last thing to do is insult or attack them, verbally or physically. As the old saying goes ďYou will attract more flies with honey than you will with vinegarĒ. Of course this is all hogwash and BS if your only fun in life is to get other people going and worked u, but then those people are the reason we have Mods.

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Old 08-09-03, 07:27 PM   #27 (permalink)
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Debate is a wonderful thing, and is the primary way progress is brought about. It is however unfortunate when the debate regresses into childish behavior (invective speech, name-calling, ect.). A true sign of intelligence is when an individual can respect another individual all while passionately disagreeing with him. If you really know what you're talking about (and you dont feel threatened), then you won't attack the individual . . . you will attack his ideas.
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Old 08-10-03, 11:38 AM   #28 (permalink)
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Debate is always good, it stimulates the thinking process as well as shows different sides to arguments.

A few points to consider are -
The forums are public. The arguments can and will drive away some new members.
You also have no idea who is reading any particular forum at any given time.
We 'spy' on our enemies. (Enemies = people and groups that want to ban reptiles)
What makes anyone feel that they are not capable of 'spying' on the herping community in the same way?
I bet it makes their day when they find arguments, name calling and a few that encourage illegalities instead of having to manufacture their own bad info.

Why cut our own throats for them?
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Old 08-10-03, 12:11 PM   #29 (permalink)
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This whole issue brings to mind a quote attributed to Voltaire - "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." It is supposed to actually be a paraphrase of some other things he said/wrote. Another one that was written by him is:
"Think for yourselves and let others enjoy the privilege to do so too.''
Voltaire's 'Essay on Tolerance'

Having said that I think you have a valid point Omen but it doesn't speak to the issue of this thread. I think more of us just need to learn to agree to disagree. You are not more right or wrong if someone agrees or disagrees with you.

Just MHO
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Old 08-10-03, 01:16 PM   #30 (permalink)
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If they think I am a jerk cause I thought they were an idiot, then they will express that.
But you see, there is no point to such things on this forum. All it will insight is argument. The person being called an idiot won't just say "You are right, chuck, I am an idiot." They will retaliate, and then so will you, etc etc etc. Eventually it will just be a flame war with nothing about herps in it.

I agree, that some people cant be un-idiotified (drives ya nuts, dont it!), but then there is still no point to calling them names because they aren't here to learn, they are just here to pass their time and irritate people.

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