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Old 07-26-03, 01:11 PM   #16 (permalink)
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...I was wondering when someone would raise this question.
I have been silently watching the great issue of late...morphs. Particularly related to boas. I find it almost comical how so many jump on the wagon to condemn and criticize boa and python morphs only to boast of their fondness and admiration for their designer corns or another trendy new leo morph?????
Very many people dont even realize that the animal they keep is indeed a morph.
I'm all for responsible breeding, regardless of species, but many of us must stop preaching from the fence. If it is a 'good thing' then it should remain (with responsible and ethical breeding), but if it is 'bad', let's all realize that it is bad for all species...yes even your favorites!!

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Old 07-26-03, 04:06 PM   #17 (permalink)
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Yeah, right. People are getting rich off of making corn snake morphs. Riiiggggghhhtt....
Getting rich and making MORE money is a different issue. Mophs on corns are "worth" more than normals, even if its a few extra bucks. Normal Ball pythons, $15
But when you throw out that fancy albino or pies, well by golly its over a wopping grand or two.. Maybe 3. So again, Its all in the money.




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Nature creates hybrids all the time. I have an intergraded black and yellow rat snake
Nature creates intergrades. Hybrids are what are made from human interventions..
Can't say I've ever seen a corn snake bred to a cali king in the wild.
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Old 07-26-03, 04:16 PM   #18 (permalink)
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I agree with reptile gallery... I'm the first to admit that I bought 2 corns, though I didn't really grasp all the genetics behind them. had I done that, to be truthful, I wouldn't have been so interested. However, I have these two corns, and I really enjoy having them. I am not going to sell or give them away just because I wasn't so knowledgeable 5 or 6 years ago.

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Old 07-26-03, 05:32 PM   #19 (permalink)
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I cant explain people's feelings towards anything but it could be the fact that many colubrid owners are only working with colubrids these are there first animals and dont care or understand these issues I am not saying EVERY one is like that but it could be possable that these are first timer's



while people working with carpets (Imo The LEAST excepting of hybrids) understand the truth. if the carpet genitics are fouled were fu$*ed we cant get them from the wild what are we to do... but with corns people think.... I can find a pure corn let me get a hook .....lets go herping
People value pythons much higher then most colubrids
so it could be a combo?
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Old 07-26-03, 11:38 PM   #20 (permalink)
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Personally.. I think if you love the snakes, it shouldn't matter if they are a mix of species or not. Obviously for some it is different, because some people want to keep the snakes pure (not a bad thing), but if you love the snake for what it is, it shouldn't matter. I personally love all snakes, and to me, they are all interesting and unique, even if they are hybrids. ~TR~
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Old 07-26-03, 11:38 PM   #21 (permalink)
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KG3 touched on an important point- there is a world of difference between:
morphs- different colour/pattern phases of the same species, either naturally occurring (in the wild) or 'artificially' through selective breeding
intergrades- subspecific interbreedings which commonly occur in the wild, especially where ranges overlap (i.e. yellow X black ratsnakes = 'greenish' rat snakes, naturally occurring intergrade)
hybrids- the results of two entirely different SPECIES being mated together, which generally does not happen in the wild, though there are exceptions.

A particular concern I have is that many snake HYBRIDS are actually fertile, unlike many other hybrid animals such as mules. These animals can be bred, sold, released, etc. with possibilities for harm if people are not very careful. 3 or 4 generations down the road, when there are thousands of 'Jungle Corns' floating around, will all of the new owners be so careful? I doubt it.

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Old 07-27-03, 02:44 AM   #22 (permalink)
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Well put.
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Old 07-27-03, 03:13 AM   #23 (permalink)
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a morph and an intergrade are two differnt things. Leo morphs arn"t crossed with other geckos.
Marisa, I'm not sure but I don't think that a "true albino redtail" exists. It is a hybred, I hope I'm wrong.
The trouble with cross breeding is people can't leave the animals at 50/50. Ie the indian python in north america is almos always a cross with a burmies python. another is the jungle/dimond cross.
People may start out with good intentions but money and lazzyness takes over and people loss track of what is what.
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Old 07-27-03, 08:11 AM   #24 (permalink)
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Webster’s dictionary:

Hybrid- Genetics. The offspring of genetically dissimilar parents or stock, especially the offspring produced by breeding plants or animals of different varieties, species, or races.

Intergrade - To merge into each other in a series of stages, forms, or types.

I will stand by my statement that hybrids are created in nature.
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Old 07-27-03, 08:27 AM   #25 (permalink)
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Well said, Chuck! Technically, using the dictionary definition, hybridization covers species, subspecies, colour phases, cultivars, etc. as a general term. So yes, I'll agree that with this definition hybridization happens rampantly in nature. It could even be argued that any form of sexual reproduction (to parents with different genes, though only slightly different) could be viewed that way, if you took the definition strictly enough. However, from a biological point of view these things are quite different, and we generally differentiate between them with additional terminology.

'Intergrades' generally do "merge into each other in a series of stages, forms, or types" in the wild. For example, in North American ratsnakes, moving northwards, Everglades, Everglades X Yellows, Yellows, Yellow X Blacks, Blacks (yes, there are others as well). In fact, as it turns out, these various forms may all be more closely related together genetically despite their outward appearances than Blacks from one side of the Appalachians are to Blacks from the other side.

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Old 07-27-03, 09:19 AM   #26 (permalink)
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Quote:
I have been silently watching the great issue of late...morphs. Particularly related to boas. I find it almost comical how so many jump on the wagon to condemn and criticize boa and python morphs only to boast of their fondness and admiration for their designer corns or another trendy new leo morph?????

There is a big difference between a man made hybrid, and a genetic ressisive trait brought out by linebreeding.
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Old 07-27-03, 09:35 AM   #27 (permalink)
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I agree that there is a diff. between man made hybrids and genetic recessive line breeding. however, I think both are playing with the animals genes....
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Old 07-27-03, 01:56 PM   #28 (permalink)
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Deffinitions of hybrids change to often.. Even dictionary deffinitions vary..

Mayr (1963) described hybridization as the
crossing of individuals belonging to two unlike natural populations that have secondarily
come into contact. (I.E. Breeder's)


Sibley (2000) Hybrids are the offspring of parents of two different species.
The offspring of parents of two different subspecies (of the same species) are know as
intergrades rather than hybrids.

Who to follow.. However since noone tends to agree on what constitutes a species ( Species change, ssp. change ) Making a former hybrid possibly a hybrid no longer, or into a different hybrid mixture.

Being said, I will stick to the simple Hybrids are a man's intervention and intergrades are a naturally occuring phenomenon deffinition. Matter of choice.
Xain

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Old 07-27-03, 03:58 PM   #29 (permalink)
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Sorry a species
Is a an organism that cannot produce
fertile offspring with another species
So subspecies is correct or otherwise they are not different species
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Old 07-27-03, 04:45 PM   #30 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by Bryce Masuk
while people working with carpets (Imo The LEAST excepting of hybrids) understand the truth.

Really are they ALL that less excepting of them? Diamonds and jungles have been crossed countless times,IJ's and jungles, coastals and jungles. Jungles and green trees.
Also you say we are @#$%ed up if the lines are messed,with the constant inbreeding for better colour I would think we already are.
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