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Old 07-07-03, 04:26 PM   #31 (permalink)
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I feel like its more than just "oh smuugle them in"

By bringing in exotic pets, Hawaiis natural eco-system and its native species could be ruined. I feel it would be irresponsible for someone to bring in a snake to Hawaii for this reason. Also, if your snake needs vet attention what do you do? Either a. dont take it because the vet will tell on you and tell authorities you have illegal herps or B. you'll have to go to shady vets who WONT tell on you, but being shady I can't imagine wanting that care for my snakes.

The more "underground" keepers there are there, the worse. As I mentioned these "underground" people have already let loose (on accident or however!) Green Iguanas and Chams which could both have a severe impact on Hawaii. It's not a matter of the law being wrong, its a matter of Hawaii being a very comfy place to call home for some herps due to the climate, and then taking over from the native species.

IMHO
I really hope you can find great homes for them here, in the mainland where they are both legal, and less likely to escape and cause havoc in the eco system.

Marisa
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Old 07-07-03, 04:34 PM   #32 (permalink)
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What is your evidence that those lizards where released pets? Animals migrate; itís a never ending cycle. A few years ago, iguanas showed up on some island, I canít recall the name. Of course researchers went wild trying to figure this out. Then about 5 of them were discovered floating on a falling tree that had been blown on that course by a hurricane. Even if this girlís snake were to escape, and I am sure they wonít, then what will they do? She does not have mated pairs and they canít reproduce by masturbation. When I law becomes that constrictive, I have no moral qualms about ignoring it.
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Old 07-07-03, 05:09 PM   #33 (permalink)
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Actually there have been cases of snakes reproducing asexually, it's not common but there was a case this year with a burmese python reproducing with out a male to help. How ever promoting the breaking of herp laws is the wrong way to do things, and rather irresponsible. The laws may be unjust (in this case I don't feel they are) but you don't change them by breaking them. Also if a species makes it's over on it's own, bully for them, it wasn't introduced by man. Look at the problems Australia is having with all the species introduced by man. It's well past time to start being responible about the ecosystem, and saying "one snake won't hurt" doesn't help, if everyone had one snake escape the place would be overrun. Look at florida where they have non native species out in the wild.
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Old 07-07-03, 05:48 PM   #34 (permalink)
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My evidence? Have you not seen the countless shows in nature channels talking with Hawaii officals about this? I believe specifically the vieled chams were MAN introduced. And are now become a "possible" problem for native species.

There are, like Lisa mentioned, COUNTLESS other examples around the globe where man introduced species have wiped out native ones. All because someone imported them illegally. Sure some "drift" through as you mention but many are released and escape.

I am 100% positive she would take EVERY measure to make sure her snakes did not escape, but as well all know even escape proof cages have been escaped from. And we aren't talking about a Canadian climate here, Hawaiis climate is preferable, and tolerable to many many species that are not natives there. This is *exactly* the reason Hawaii has such strict laws.

I am including some links:
http://www.maui.net/~mauinews/cgnews6d.htm - Talks about the Cham problem in Maui, four have been found as of this article and they are fairly sure there are more, and sure they are escaped pets.

Qoute from article: "'I think there should be a lot of concern,'' Duvall said. ''It could spread over large areas of the island and have a very large biological impact.'"

http://starbulletin.com/2001/02/17/news/story3.html Another article talking about a problem with geckos....and a qoute=
"The giant day gecko is the 30th species of alien reptile or amphibian to become established in Hawaii," said Kraus. "Like most recent reptile introductions, it came via the illegal pet trade."

There are hundreds more articles just like this one. Loud and clear the reason NOT to sneak things in Hawaii and break the law if you ask me.

Marisa
P.S. I would also liek to add: this is not just about the law being wrong, this is a VERY sensitive area (hawaii) If Ontario say made snakes illegal to own, you better believe I may in fact ignore the law because I know I am not even close to being able to hurt Ontario ecosystems, but in Hawaii a person must realize its not about the government being jerks, its about the possibility of this wonderful place being devastated ecologically.
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Old 07-08-03, 07:14 AM   #35 (permalink)
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Plus even if they don't get loose, what happens if the government finds out about them. What is their course of action? Putting the animal down is quite likely. Better to find them new homes or temporary homes until you move back to the mainland.
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Old 07-08-03, 09:38 AM   #36 (permalink)
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Lisa & Marisa, I donít want to come across as degrading or insulting to you. I am sure you are both very nice ladies, but we are on complete opposite ends of this issue. I believe we have the God given right to keep animals. My basis, the bible. In Genesis God gave Adam dominion over the animals. Legally I do not think this principle has an end, but morally I think it ends at the useless slaughter of animals. I also think we have a constitutional right to keep snakes. We are guaranteed the pursuit of happiness. My right to pursue happiness stops only when it begins to interfere with anotherís pursuit of happiness. Now, if a state or local government makes a law that contradicts Godís law and/or the constitution, then I have no problem ignoring such a law. Also I think HI is being quite hypocritical. The importation of lumper is bringing in more problem species then private keepers would in 50 years. They are not stopping the lumper??? The state should institute a system for herps just as FL has done for venomous. Make the keepers be accountable. If they would do that, I would have no problem telling this lady to follow the law. Since they decided to outlaw keeping, sure I say do it anyway. I know I would. Call it irresponsible or any other dispersion you like, itís irresponsible of the HI government to over step their bounds.

There have been no cases of asexual reproduction. They are cases of sperm retention. The female can retain the sperm until she feels the conditions are acceptable to produce. A female Timber Rattlesnake was collected in MO in 1995 and housed by herself at all times while at the nature center and produced a littler in 2001.

You can not compare the problem in Australia to this situation. Those animals were brought in and released there hoping they would populate. If Jncoclub was planning to buy 1000 female burms and 200 males and turn them loose in HI, I would tell her that is a bad idea.

Your nature shows and the HI officials, they will quickly blame keeper and the pet trade cause they are not in bed with them. They are taking huge contributions from the lumper industry and will not say or do anything to effect that.

How the quote should read: ďI think there should be a lot of concern, but I have been bought off, so I will blame everything on private keepers cause they are easy targets and refuse to pay me.Ē
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Old 07-08-03, 05:49 PM   #37 (permalink)
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You have the right to persue happiness, how ever actually getting happiness is not garanteed. And your right to persue happiness will interfere with other peoples right to persue happiness by damaging the enviroment around them. As for god given rights, in the bible it says that slaves are fine, does that mean I can start keeping slaves? Lets seperate the church and state as your gods kingdom is not of this world, and we no longer live in the garden of eden.

As for asexual reproduction, reptiles magazine reported earlier this year about the case of the burmese python. I think they could tell the difference between sperm retention and asexual reproduction.


Here is a list of prohibited animals in hawaii. It doesn't list all reptiles, just some.

As for the number of animals required, you don't need many. 90 years ago 17 mongoose were introduced into Okinawa as a measure against the mice, rats and the habu. Now there are estimated to be 10,000 and the mongoose is now threatening the exctinction of many native species. Okinawa isn't the only place that has foolishly imported mongoose. Hawaii and Jamaca have both had mongooses imported and it has been directly responsible for the EXTINCTION of 31 species on the 2 islands combined. I think Hawaii has these laws due to unfortunate experience. And mamals aren't the only problem, right now Guam is having problems with both habu and brown tree snakes overunning the island. It's one thing if the animals make it there on their own, it's another if they were helped by man to get there.


Here's the penalty for importing into hawaii. the final little bit at the end could keep you broke forever.
Penalty:
Any person or company who violates Chapter 150A, Hawaii Revised Statutes, or rules adopted under this chapter, shall be guilty of a misdemeanor and subject to fines ranging from $100-$25,000 and/or one year in jail, and costs for recapturing, eradicating, or controlling the pest.
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Old 07-08-03, 05:53 PM   #38 (permalink)
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dont try to smuggle them. i am pretty sure its impossible with all the security u will msot likely be caught and fined like crazy.
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Old 07-08-03, 06:21 PM   #39 (permalink)
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You are treating this like this person is moving to say Ohio.

There if they made herps illegal, I AGREE WITH YOU! Its not their right to take away OUR rights! If they tried to take them away where I live, still agree with you! No way!

but when something can so OBVIOUSLY hurt the surrounding enviroment you don't care as long as your personal rights are in place? Its NOT about that in Hawaii man! Its about it being the perfect enviroment for non-native species to live! Can't you understand that the whole "no one is taking my herps away from me" doesn't have ANYTHING to do with Hawaii? Its about being REPSONSIBLE for the enviroment around you. It has NOTHING to do with reptiles being bad pets, being illegal because the government sucks or anything like that. Reptiles could DESTROY hawaii's enviroment.ecosystem! If all you care about is yourself and would insist on possible adding to an already bad problem in Hawaii then that's on you. But I don't think ANY responsible nature love, or herper would do such a thing, thinkign they are standing up for their "rights" when clearly they could help destroy a beautiful delicate ecosystem.

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Old 07-09-03, 08:45 AM   #40 (permalink)
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You both continue to revert to the environmental damage. Again I say to that, this ladyís snakes will do absolutely no environmental damage. I do not support the introduction of non-indigenous species in HI or anywhere else. Introduction is always done with good intentions and the results often backfire. Why would you compare keeping snakes in your home to mongooses being introduced to Okinawa? What does that have to do with what we are talking about? I already said I would not support her if she intended to release a breeding colony. And if Reptiles reported a case of asexual reproduction, then I say they were wrong. Please give me a feasible scenario in which this ladyís burm could escape and do any wide scale environmental damage?
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Old 07-09-03, 09:45 AM   #41 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by SCReptiles
Please give me a feasible scenario in which this ladyís burm could escape and do any wide scale environmental damage?
BWAHAHA! Burms escape all the time! They are strong and lots of times are put into enclosures not designed to contain them. Accidents happen. It's always a possibility. You still have yet to address the fact that WHEN the government finds out about the animals (and they will find out, awfully hard to hide a burm during a sun soak. Especially if Hawaiians know the laws, the minute the animal is spotted it will be reported) they will be removed from the home and very likely killed. What good does that do anyone? Is it really worth the risk of damage to the environment AND death of the animals when she could just find good LAWFUL homes for them, perhaps even temporarily until they return to the mainland. Not to mention that we're dealing with a member of the military here. Think of the ramifications if it were discovered her fiance broke such a law.

Last edited by Alicewave; 07-09-03 at 09:48 AM..
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Old 07-09-03, 11:00 AM   #42 (permalink)
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Originally posted by SCReptiles
Please give me a feasible scenario in which this ladyís burm could escape and do any wide scale environmental damage?

Where is the wide scale environmental damage? That is everyoneís point. But I can not see a scenario of a burm causing wide scale environmental damage to HI.

BWAHAHA! Burms escape all the time! They are strong and lots of times are put into enclosures not designed to contain them. Accidents happen.

Sure they escape all the time. Iíll agree with you, but that is not wide scale environmental damge.
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Old 07-09-03, 04:19 PM   #43 (permalink)
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Its CLEAR that people importing ILLEGAL reptiles into Hawaii has caused damage!

I can't beleive anyone into herps would be so inconsiderate of the ecosystem and not understand how people smuggling in pets could pose a problem!

All these people who thought "gee my cham won't hurt Hawaii I will bring them in!" WERE WRONG!

Do what you want and tell people what you want but anyone willing to add to a growing problem is not all out for herps in my opinion, they are out for themselves and what they can keep and thats' all they care about.

Marisa
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Old 07-10-03, 01:14 PM   #44 (permalink)
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A couple things and an update regarding my call to my FL friends:
1- Wow, regardless of my situation, I think I started a good thread. I appreciate everyoneís passionate/ from-the-heart responses.
2- In the article that Marisa last posted there is the quote: ďPossession of illegal animals in Hawaii is punishable by fine of up to $200,000 and three years in jail.Ē I love my snakes, but that is a lot of money; I think we will all agree on that. Plus, I already got tweezers taken away from my carry-on while going thru a metal detector.
3- All my snakes were probed numerous times and each time it concluded that they were all girls. I honestly donít think my girls would start asexual reproduction, nor do I believe a male burm will float on a stick to the islands where they will mate and take over the ecosystem. However, if anyone actually read the book ďJurassic ParkĒ (different from the movie) and watched the 2nd Jurassic Park movie, all of this is truly possible.
4- You can see how bad I feel about having to find new homes for 4 snakes, I donít think I could handle taking down an entire ecosystem.
5- My over all tone is that I absolutely love my snakes, but the reality of the matter is that we will be in Hawaii the minimum of 2 years, most likely 5 years, and heck, if he reenlists and we love it- 13 years. (My money is on the 2-5 years) I unfortunately do not see taking my snakes with as being an option.

Phone call to FL friends: (FYI- a couple opened up an exotic reptile shop in FL, after 3 years they shut down due to building health hazards, they will not be reopening.)
I called last night and told one of them my problem. Long story short, she just recommends that if I canít friends to care for them (she is still trying to sell off 3 snakes that she still has from the shop- they can not take them for me); that 1) I have to suck it up and try to sell them, 2) to contact local reptile shops (i.e. Regal Reptiles in Rhode Island) and see if they will buy them from me, 3) contact humane societies (in CT, RI, MA, NY) in the event they know of anyone looking for reptiles, 4) ads in newspapers, 5) just give them away for free to a known good home, and last resort, 6) a reputable reptile rescue. She believes I would get more money for them up here than in FL.

So here I am now. I want to have them in their new locations by October (we leave CT Oct 10). I have a lot of research in front of me. Any additional suggestions as to where/how I should start?
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Old 07-10-03, 01:45 PM   #45 (permalink)
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Like I said, I'm in CT. I'd rather not but if you can't find any other solution I could take 1 and give it a good home. I think you made the right choice, hard as it is.
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