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Old 05-12-03, 06:50 PM   #31 (permalink)
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Pet dogs come from wolves, turn of the last century they were bred to be more tame , some wanted vicious dogs so dobermans and rot wielers were bred, dogs are fed canned food , you wouldnt see owners feeding them live prey which wolves eat.


... Dogs were seperated from wolves some 10-12,000 years ago.
With multitudes of selective cross breeding and inbreeding.
Each Dog species we have a crosses from other speces of dog.
And wolves when they were in the process of being kept as pets not only ate live but scraps as well.. Feeding your dog canned food is not even healthy, dispite the fact dogs are Domesticated creatures. Snakes are not. And also, dogs as well as cats still hunt food items.. So, comparing a domesticated creature to a wild animal isn't logical, especially if the animal still eats live creatures either way....



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Its all down to sense and sensibility, if you know of potential risks can can arise by keeping captives, then its common sense and responsible husbandry to eliminate the risk, if this means feeding dead prey then surely its the right thing to do, anyone who fails to see the welfare of their animals should not keep animals period. You shouldnt have to see a photo of a tragic event or multiple photo's to know what is right and what is wrong, if anyone cant make reasonable decisions over such a clear testimony of cruelty which is written in text in many books and web pages, then i can only assume they have done zero research, irresponsible and bloody minded.


...Feeding live is nothing near cruelty. It's the facts of life. Cruelty in my eyes are keeping snakes in sweater boxes, no light, little room to move and a few airholes assuming thats its ample enough air because they are still alive. Plus power feeding so you could breed sooner than another, ect. Now, I know this may not attain to you, but do you honestly think that's humane? Or keeping a 16' burm in a 10'x4' cage? Give or take? Feeding live is the least of worries for most keepers. You choose to feed dead, your choice, but I can nearly bet most who does, doesn't even give the snake enough room to fully stretch out. (Large boids.)
Hell, I bet colubrids dont even get enough amount of room to squirm around, being most are very active, Diurnal creatures. That's cruel in my book. Not feeding live of a possible strike back against the attacker. And first it started as a picture post, one of the pictures most commonly used. Basic beginners to boids know most Balls are finicky eaters, and evaluate the pic simply as the arrogent keeper fed/left his non eating ball a rat. The ample use of other pics will help evaluate the ball pic. So if you post a pic of this topic, do it right.
...A ferret, eh? One could only wonder..
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Old 05-13-03, 12:46 AM   #32 (permalink)
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Seems like this has grown into quite the discussion.

Now here's more food for thought, something I don't recall anyone posting as a point, although have seen another point mentioned, that is, snakes eating live in the wild as if it is all they eat in the wild.

In the wild, all animals, including snakes, are creatures of opportunity when it comes to food and feedings.
Even the parasitic animals such as the hyena, wait for another animal to do the work for it, devouring dead prey just as they would live prey, if they needed to catch it themselves.
Snakes also eat like this, primarily due to food having varying degrees of scarcity in the wild.
One season may provide an abundance of food, while another season may not.
Another season may provide too many prey items that will die of starvation or disease. If so, then snakes will still eat dead, as the opportunty arises.
Food is food, dead or live in the wild and with snakes being masters of conservation will eat dead in the wild as another means of conserving energy.
It's a free meal per say.
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Old 05-13-03, 12:51 AM   #33 (permalink)
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I dont realy understand where are going with all this curalty stuff like you are questioning husbandry skils that were based on nothing but fact and long term studies.

There is UV bulbs for animals that require natural sun light to live. You know there is probebly ppl reading this thread and saying I sould give my snake natural light too but you faild to mention that you should NEVER under any circomstances expos your cage to natural sun light cause you will have the green house effect meaning the sun light will fillter through the glass of your window and then again through the glass of the enclosure creating somthing like a magnifying glass and roasting your animal.

who cares what we feed our dogs at least the vets care about them and can patch them up when a stupid keeper screws up.
We need to take the initiative to take proper care of our herps it will minimise the vets trips. So ppl wont fall victime to the system.

What wrong with feeding a ferret to a snake That could hapen it the wild ppl feed rabits and guine pigs and latter even pigs so one should not wonder it was probebly the only thing he/she could get there hands on. The real mistake was taking the chance and feeding it live.

It may have never hapend to you yet but be warned that it could happen to you tomarow or on any feeding day feeding live is like playing russian roulette when will the bullet be behind the hammer and not a empty chamber.
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Old 05-13-03, 12:54 AM   #34 (permalink)
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well put The_Omen
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Old 05-13-03, 01:16 AM   #35 (permalink)
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I would like to add to what Chondro Python said.

Its fine and dandy that you have placed yourself on such a high horse because you feel natural sunlight is best. When if you have cerain species, it will do nothing but stress them out. Its GREAT you do that for your animals, seriously, and hopefully they are dinural...but to assume others aren't good keepers because they have UVB bulbs or no sunlight is just silly, and a huge generalization.


As well as saying all snakes or herps living in rubbermaids are suffering. Did you even think to consider some that PREFER smaller, less clear housing before making such a broad statement? I would also like to see your sources for proof that herps/snakes whatever do better in something other than rubbermaid. Not that rubbermaids are the best, but I'd like to see your proof of why they are "cruel" ....maybe for large boids, but not for species such as ball pythons who PREFER to feel safe and secure and stay relatively hidden. This matches how they behave in the wild. So why should others force them to endure natural sunlight each day in a huge cage they will be stressed in because you say so?

Really man, I am not trying to be rude. But you are making some comments I personally feel are huge generalizations, huge guesses as to what people are keeping without "natural light" and in rubbermaids. Most colubrids are dinural? Are we talking most as in, in the world or most commonly kept? Because that would be corns, which prefer early evening and early morning and night time.

Look I agree most snakes could use more room. But I think you are way to generalizing and you aren't telling people how you came to any of these conclusions.

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Old 05-13-03, 09:46 PM   #36 (permalink)
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Quote:
but to assume others aren't good keepers because they have UVB bulbs or no sunlight is just silly, and a huge generalization.


..I never said not having natural sunlight was bad. I said keeping animals in a small dark box with flexwatt as heat was just as "inhumane" as feeding live.
Now I also understand that snakes don't require UVation as well, but hey, lets take everything from them...


Quote:
As well as saying all snakes or herps living in rubbermaids are suffering. Did you even think to consider some that PREFER smaller, less clear housing before making such a broad statement?

Rat snakes, racers, garters, most elapids, most crotalus, ect require more room than most people I've seen give them. Active snakes need more room compared to slow sluggish worms.
But hey, They are only snakes.. And are you sure 16' burms require so little space so many herpers give? If so, forgive me.


Quote:
I would also like to see your sources for proof that herps/snakes whatever do better in something other than rubbermaid


.. Thrashng from side to side garters or bull snakes from side to side in 4' container looks a tad painful to me.. Hell, even the 200g. troughs appears painful. But hey, as long as noone feeds live. We all love a good bashing.


Quote:
Not that rubbermaids are the best, but I'd like to see your proof of why they are "cruel" ....maybe for large boids, but not for species such as ball pythons who PREFER to feel safe and secure and stay relatively hidden.


..Given the space, they will use it. I never declined a small box for coziness..



Quote:
This matches how they behave in the wild.


..They travel and seek shelte in small hides, not live there lives in them.



Quote:
So why should others force them to endure natural sunlight each day in a huge cage they will be stressed in because you say so?


..Heh. I dont recall saying Give ball pythons sunlight. I said I provide most of my snakes natural sunlight. And a huge cage wont stress them out; Or at least the ones I have raised or care for. ( 6'l.x6'w.x2'h. enclosures for prs.)

Quote:
Most colubrids are dinural?
..Seasonal on most specimens behaviors.

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Are we talking most as in, in the world or most commonly kept?
Throwing all 'dem buggas in a bowl.

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Because that would be corns, which prefer early evening and early morning and night time.
I was under the impression the sun was still out during the crespuscular hours.. Before or after the sun sets.. Twilight hours involves the sun showing.. And aren't those lil' creatures active?



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Look I agree most snakes could use more room. But I think you are way to generalizing and you aren't telling people how you came to any of these conclusions.


..Well, the post wasn't on housing and never infered to evaluate a scare post on my housing opinions. I only used it to back my statement up on feeding live isn't as evil as everyone sees it out to be. And doing so would make my replies to those a tad longer than this one and I assume most people won't even finish this post unless they are in an arguable mood.



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I dont realy understand where are going with all this curalty stuff like you are questioning husbandry skils that were based on nothing but fact and long term studies


Backing a point. Fact, feeding live MAY cause bites. FACT, housing an active creature in a small containment isn't a good deal. Get where I'm going with this?





Quote:
There is UV bulbs for animals that require natural sun light to live.
Well from past read studies
Most if not all UV bulbs don't even penetrate 6" of air and most enclosures UV is placed well above a foot. Again, past readings, if I'm wrong show me the light. If not, then buying those over priced bulbs are useless..


Quote:
You know there is probebly ppl reading this thread and saying I sould give my snake natural light too but you faild to mention that you should NEVER under any circomstances expos your cage to natural sun light cause you will have the green house effect meaning the sun light will fillter through the glass of your window and then again through the glass of the enclosure creating somthing like a magnifying glass and roasting your animal
Good point. However, my statements were never to clarify my housing opinions, just back up statements to why do one without expressing another?

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who cares what we feed our dogs at least the vets care about them and can patch them up when a stupid keeper screws up.
Ok.. Hmm.. Are you with or against feeding live or dead.. I mean, hurt animals can be fixed too.. I'm lost...

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We need to take the initiative to take proper care of our herps it will minimise the vets trips.
So are herps are more important then mans best friend?

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What wrong with feeding a ferret to a snake That could hapen it the wild
Ferret to eaten by a Boa wouldn't happen naturally.. But, I never sad it was a problem, just wondering why feed an expensive animal to another. Boredom? Amusement? Lack of the caring ability? Hmm..

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ppl feed rabits and guine pigs and latter even pigs so one should not wonder it was probebly the only thing he/she could get there hands on
I dunno, Im sure if you could by a ferret, you could get a mouse; Or at least wait a week for some to arrive. Rabbits as well as pigs are generally cheap. Way cheaper than a ferret mind you. I bet it was because of the above reasons why it was fed.

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It may have never hapend to you yet but be warned that it could happen to you tomarow or on any feeding day feeding live is like playing russian roulette when will the bullet be behind the hammer and not a empty chamber.
Good point. Valid point. Damn near the best I've heard so far. And that's the post that would make any live feeder change his mind. All of the previous writtings that tried to show me as a moron have just been defeated. But lifes about chances, things live, things die. God (Yes I'm religious) will decide when it's time for the slithery creature goes.

To Omen's post. I do believe I carried on about snakes eating carrion. However, good post.

And in conclussion, I hope. It doesn't matter how I treat my animals, or how you do yours. (in this post.) My whole starting on this post was because of the thing that feeding dead was the only answer. I'm saying do what you can. Do what works for you. And if you want to convice someone on a topic use various reasonings. Not a picture that was used multiple times. Good day.
Xain
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Old 05-13-03, 10:00 PM   #37 (permalink)
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Come on now. Survival of the fittest. If the mouse wins congrats to him
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Old 05-13-03, 10:11 PM   #38 (permalink)
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It could also be the owner wanted to save a buck so he fed his friends ferret to his snake after the friend said he did not want it any more. You know us men we will feed anything to our snakes just to see if it can be eaten thre worst thing is a ferret is the snakes worst enemy.

And yes herps are more in portant the mans best friend.

MY boss's cat had kitens and he feed them to a caimen and went right to lunch after. NOTE the kitens were still borns so he was not barbaric

I have learnd to regard every thing with furr as herp food.
If you only knew how many ppl ask me to fix the stray population in my little vilage but my snakes are to small and it is against the law.
But I would not think twice about feeding a dog to a retic I hate dogs but that is just me.....................LOLOLOLO

not congrats to him over a 10 000$ snake
I will kill the darn thing slowly if that would hapen to me
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Old 05-13-03, 11:51 PM   #39 (permalink)
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Personally, I respect all life. Annoying insects the least simply because I can kill them when they pester me with out going to jail. In most cases anyways. Humans come in a close second, but I doubt I'd kill one because then I'd feel bad only wiping out the annoying people and guys.
I bought a duck not to long ago to feed as to one of my juvenile crocodilians an the way the duck swam and quacked made me feel evil, so I kept him as a pet until he grew into a big over grown chair and tried to eat my cat. I gve him to a friend who was capable of caring for him because I'm a pansy and couldn't handle him in one of my ponds. (All of my ponds inhabit very large carnivorus animals, as do most of the enclosures I have.)
So feeding a furry, mischeivious creature on a good day would make me sad. heh. Now the still borns, in a heart beat. No need to waste good food. But I dunno, Live an let live, bug me and die.
Good motto?
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Old 05-14-03, 07:49 AM   #40 (permalink)
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sorry for the reply that said: well come on now its survivil of the fittest if the mouse wins congrats to him. my dad wrote that!!!:skull: :medangry: now im p***ed about it sorry
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Old 05-14-03, 11:18 AM   #41 (permalink)
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"Lets take everything from them"

I am not sure what you mean by this. You as well as everyone else around here keeps herps in a cage. Saying you feel better mentally because you aren't taking everything away is a little silly to me. They are living in a cage no matter how you look at it. If your views are so militant about keeping herps then why keep them captive in the first place? You can't have a natural world for a captive herp. Yes you can get close, but its not the wild. Its a home. People live in the home. Noises, etc. It can never be natural. Buying them alone took everything away. I agree give them the best home you can but I believe that means following what generations of snake keepers (same species as me) have proven to be sucessful methods to keeping and breeding healthy snakes. Your natural sun and huge cage method works great I am sure, but it doesn't work for everyone and it certainly doesn't work for every herp. I don't believe that means people who are sucessful in keeping that way can't say feeding live is bad. Feeding live is a mistake that can happen in a large or small cage.

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They travel and seek shelte in small hides, not live there lives in them
Ball Pythons are NOT a travelling snake. This is obvious just by comparing their body and habits with a cornsnake. You'd be surprised how small a range most of them have. By forcing them to live in large cages you are forcing them to seek out correct temp gradients which is not always a good thing, not always. The fact that Ball Pythons are heathier/happier/better eaters when living in small safer cages has been shown by many many breeders, including many on this site. You saying their balls would do better in 80 gallon cages is simply not true. *Some* may, but even more will be too stressed out by the open space to freely move through the heat gradient, won't want to eat, etc. This has come up hundreds of times on this site alone.

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Thrashng from side to side garters or bull snakes from side to side in 4' container looks a tad painful to me.. Hell, even the 200g. troughs appears painful. But hey, as long as noone feeds live. We all love a good bashing.
But is that not the point of having threadS? One thread for one discussion another for another discussion? This thread was about the dangers of feeding live, not the downside of small cages. I agree most snakes need more room but why would I bring up each thing I see as a husbandry fault in every thread I post in? I see your point but don't see why someone who keeps in rubbermaids shouldn't post about not feeding live.

I just don't understand what basis you have for saying those snakes kept in rubbermaids are less healthy than yours kept in these bedroom sized cages? A 200 gallon trough is more than enough for a happy small sized colubrid. I doubt you could actually tell me the differance in health between my colubrids or those kept in a 200 gallon trough. Mine have larger than average cages, and I DO AGREE that some peoples housing is gross.

I believe big boids are another story altogether. I also cannot believe some people keep them in 8 by 3 foot cages. But then again those people would argue that the snakes aren't using the room even when given the room. But I don't know much about large boids so I won't comment much on them.

I just keep small colubrids and I don't agree that my animals are being tortured by living in rubbermaids with flexwatt heating. I am not sure what type of heating you'd suggest for someone living in Canada that would be more natural. But if it was active UV bulbs I doubt I'd have very happy snakes for long. My iguanas cage is not even large enough to allow safe use of those. I did @ one time use a UVB stripe light for better viewing of two corns....I never did see a differance though. In fact one of them is a total shrimp/slow grower and the other passed away. Of course this has nothing to do with the bulb, but it doesn't seem to have helped out as much as you seem to think it would. It made no differance what so ever. And if you ask how I know, then I'd ask how you know it does.

I just want to add (sorry novel) that you have good points...I just don't understand why you lump everyone who uses those methods together when the facts point that some species do better in those enclosures.

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Old 05-14-03, 12:13 PM   #42 (permalink)
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I may have missed it if I did sorry for bring it up again but most snakes that won't take F/T will take a fresh kill. I had a ball that would not come out of his fast this year and a fresh killed rat from the hemostats did the trick. I had a hog island boa that I had to convert from live. She went from live fuzzie mouse to a stunded fuzzie to a fresh kill to frozen thawed. My point is even if you have to feed live you can stun it first and use hemos to greatly reduce the risk of injury to your snake. I see no reason to ever have to place a live feeder on the floor cage.
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Old 05-14-03, 12:32 PM   #43 (permalink)
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Live rodents fed to snakes get extremely stressed and produce a hormone called cortisol which does not get digested by herps, in fact it can enter the bloodstream much like estrogen does in mammals and contribute to stress-related diseases.

I see absolutely no reason for not stunning or preferably killing the prey first. It's far healthier for the snake. No matter how big a cage we provide our snakes do not get the exercise that a wild snake does and can't work off the "fight or flight" hormones effectively. So they are prone to develop immune system deficiencies, liver disease and obesity caused by high cortisol levels.
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Old 05-15-03, 10:27 AM   #44 (permalink)
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That is such a sad site. Poor snake. I have always and will always feed my snakes f/t. There are so many things you can try if they don't like the f/t ones without resorting to live.

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Old 05-15-03, 07:16 PM   #45 (permalink)
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That is totally sick pik but in the pic is the BP dead or alive?
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