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Old 05-01-03, 05:30 AM   #16 (permalink)
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I supose that all of you would be willing and have the time to take a course or test if need eh. I'm sorry but I doubt it. At the risk of being looked poorly upon I am going to express my honest opinion on this subject. Taking care of a large snake requires knowing only one more thing than taking care of a small snake. And that is how to handle/cage it. These are not difficult things to learn. If a burmese python is bought as a baby, (20 inches) it will not be difficult to handle at all. As the snake gets larger it will become more and more difficult to handle, and subsequently you will get more and more experience handling a bigger and bigger snake. It all goes together. Maybe buying and already adult is not such a good idea for someone with no experience, but buying a baby and raising it will give you much more knowledge than any week long course or test could offer. As far a research research research goes, come on. How much is there to learn to be able to provide that snake with the best type living conditions possible. Buy a good book and read it. This can take no more than two evenings. What else is there to know other than cage size, temperature, gradient, photo period, arborial/terrestrial, diet. These are about the only things necessary to know in order to provide a reptile with comfortable living, and can easily be learned in a night.

You will probably all hate me now, but think about it. Once you know the basic care of on reptile, all you need to find out are the differences in the requirments for another and you're set. Maybe it's just me though.
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Old 05-01-03, 06:16 AM   #17 (permalink)
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I agree with you dm101081. No matter how many small snakes you keep it will never prepare you for owning a larger one. Nor does it make you a good snake keeper. Being a good reptile owner comes from within, your personal feelings of wanting to do the very best for your reptile. Whether you own one reptile or a hundred you would study and provide the proper housing and care for the reptile. This type of person would make a good large snake owner.
The only way to get experience with large snakes is to work with them. I would always suggest that people who want large snakes to do there research and make sure that they are possitive it is right for them, but nothing really prepares you for the 15 to 20 pound piles of poo.
The next thing I would suggest is start out with a baby do not jump right in with an adult. The babies grow quickly, but so does your knowledge of the snake. As your snake grows so does your experience level. But please if you find out that it becomes to much for you find it a good home and do not start to neglect it.
Make sure you have at least a 4'x8' area and this is the bare minimum if you love your snake you should provide more room.
I believe there is paper you have to sign that says once you become a reptile owner you lose all of your friends, but try to keep one around to help you clean and feed your new reptile when it gets large.
I also do not believe they are for children they grow way faster than the kids. I hate it when I see parents buy their children reptiles and thank they do not have to help them with it. I was in the petstore once and a man came in and said his son's snake wasn't eating when asked if the snake was showing any signs of illness he walked over and asked his kid (which was around 8) if it was acting funny, the kid said yeah its got its mouth open all the time. So the man was asked, whats the temperature of the cage, do you have a heat lamp on it? The man looked at the kid again, the kid said I don't know what the temperature is but my light quit working last year.
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Old 05-01-03, 09:33 AM   #18 (permalink)
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I really have to agree with Matt on this one.... and a course is definatly a good idea. I don't think having to have a license or something to keep the larger herps is out of the question at all, it seems perfetly necsacery to me.
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Old 05-01-03, 11:46 AM   #19 (permalink)
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OK, here it is, my .02........lol. Some of you know that I take in rescues, and most of them have been burms. while I think licenses and classes/courses and epxerience with a burm owner handling, feeding, cleaning HUGE piles of poop, etc. are all good ideas, let's face it. It is not very realistic. some burm(and other large snake) buyers are just kids, most pet stores do NOT care, give no info or incorrect info, and when the snake is 10ft and parents are freaking out, they end up in rescue. I also realise that there are alot of BCI's coming into rescues now, too. But think about it: Can you place in a GOOD home, a boa that will likely not reach 10 ft, or burm, retic, or Afrock that can reach 18-20ft? I know alot of reptiles are impulse buys for kids, their parents, or someone buying their first snake. if it's pretty, they want it, and the large snakes are really pretty, especially as babies. Can you educate the pet stores? Sure, if you can find out who's in charge and they are willing to listen. And don't forget, it has to be education that makes them $$, cause if the decision is between the welfare of the animal, or making the cash, the cash wins. There are some good pet stores out there, I personally know of a few, but the majority do not care. So I am in between. I believe there needs to be some sort of process, age requirements, experience requirements, etc. But I also know that is not feasible. Which is why the forums are a good place. Someone who comes in and asks, "Do you thinkI'm ready for a burm?" should be told, if you have to ask, you're not ready. Just like I believe there should be some slow-down in the burm breeding, as well as maybe some of the BCI breeding, to allow for the ones already out there to have good homes, I also know that as long as there is money involved, some people will just keep breeding. I also agree that until you have a large snake, you have no IDEA how much work they are, how much they eat, or how big 10 ft+ REALLY is...........lol. I believe it all lies within education, for potential owners, pet stores and breeders.
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Old 05-01-03, 04:07 PM   #20 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by dm101081
Taking care of a large snake requires knowing only one more thing than taking care of a small snake. And that is how to handle/cage it. These are not difficult things to learn. If a burmese python is bought as a baby, (20 inches) it will not be difficult to handle at all. As the snake gets larger it will become more and more difficult to handle, and subsequently you will get more and more experience handling a bigger and bigger snake. It all goes together. As far a research research research goes, come on. How much is there to learn to be able to provide that snake with the best type living conditions possible.

I agree with you mostly but...

"Taking care of a large snake requires knowing only one more thing than taking care of a small snake And that is how to handle/cage it.."
true, but there is also a respect level there that some people dont understand and may never aquire if they look at it that way. You could say the exsact same thing about hots too but would that really sum up all thats invovled? When an animal reaches a size potential to kill a human of any size, much, much more must go into the planing for the long term in aspects of caging and handleing the snanke.

Reseach could be sumed up the way you put it, but you cant tell me you really read a care sheet with all the things you listed and feal confident and ready to take care of that animal. although I read many (5-10) caresheets about an animal I want to purchice I really like to see the animal in the store, handle it, and interact with it. aside from what the care sheet says.
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Old 05-01-03, 07:01 PM   #21 (permalink)
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Its all about money,stores will sell anything to make a buck.If u dont have snake skills u shouldnt have a big snake and thats the bottom line.So maybe all the people out there thinkin on gettin a big snake should get a couple small ones first.Thats my opinion.
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Old 05-01-03, 07:37 PM   #22 (permalink)
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I think if people were required to provide the housing and the food requirements for the animal at it's largest potential size...then that would give enough would be snake owners the taste of reality they need to have! It would price/scare any non-serious owners right out of the market. Course this would never happen...but the only way to fight ignorance is thru education. Probably half the pet owners would be better owners if educated and didn't have to go thru the mistakes most of us make. Hey, how about pet stores required to take back any sick oversized animals they sold. That might motivate them to make sure their buyers are responsible owners! lol Not likely either huh? lol
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Old 05-01-03, 08:49 PM   #23 (permalink)
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I do not think the same restrictions should apply to big constrictors that are set for venomous........ Lets face it, They are not nearly as dangerous and are quite easy to care for........ And the eperiance of the keeper will grow as the snake grows....... I do think that you should do extensive research on any animal you buy........ and maybe there should be an age requirement...... I say maybe because I had a burm when I was 8 years old and I cared for it and gave it everything it needed........ The snake is still alive and now has a home with my sister....... I would still have it but my sister would not let me take her when I moved out.......LOL...... Was I ready to have a 15 ft burm when I was 8??? No way....... But I was ready to have a neonate burm and gain experiance, and as it grew so did my experiance........ That is something you CAN NOT do with venomous snakes........
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Old 05-01-03, 09:16 PM   #24 (permalink)
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Well your right on some things but big constrictors i think can be just as dangerous if they wanted to be they might not have any Venom but they are real strong and could kill someone real easy
but that is just my opinion i could be wrong
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Old 05-01-03, 10:23 PM   #25 (permalink)
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alot of people might think it should be sold to only people of a certen age, right. wrong i disagree, i think there should be a lisence to own such anamals, not nessasarly a expencive or hard to get lisense but if people have to go through to troble of getting a lisence they will figure out all about the anamal ahed of time. and if they dont know about all the eventual care requirements they will when they have to get a lisence. also it might cut down on all these abandon or uthinized snakes and it would also cut down of people getting caught up in the moment and have them just think about how "cool" it will be to have a 18 foot snake without thinking of cageing, hadleing, feeding, and ex. i have seen kids sitting out side of rep show holding there nice cute SMALL burm and just think there goes another snake down the drain. but i also have to remember not to be judemental because i am just a kid. and i have a burm but i can tell you this age is not a good factor to compare responible ownership. do most burms sold to kids not get as good homes as the ones sold to adults maby so. but that should not be the only factor that comes into place when it comes to the care of a burm. factors like resposibilty and know how should come into place. when people say you should learn how to handle the snake. well i dont think that is as important as know overall care requirements but most of the time you can lear handaling from books, other snake owners ex.
(sorry about the rant)
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Old 05-01-03, 10:26 PM   #26 (permalink)
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I also think you should have to be 18 to buy a burm or larger snake. that way 11 year old kids wont come home to momy and dady with a snake that he or his parents know nothing about
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Old 05-01-03, 10:52 PM   #27 (permalink)
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Mike, which side are you taking there? First, you say that you disagree with those that say it should only be allowed to certain ages, then in your next post you say that they should be at least 18?? Don't quite follow you there.....

My opinions here....

A test? Great idea, but would not work. Unless pet stores can somehow make money at it, then it won't work. As someone said earlier, even so, there is plenty of black-market pet stores that would side-step this process for the cash. Also, that does not include the people out there that (unfortunately) keep breeding and selling burms out of thier home and selling them to make money. I would like to think that they would be responsible, but truth be known, most are not. Bottom line, it is still about the money.

Requiring someone to provide the housing requirements first? Is there going to be someone to personally go out to each new burm owner and inspect thier housing set-up? That would cost money, not make any. At the cost of buying a burm (around $30 to $50), it is not financially cost-effective to do this.

I think it is not about age, but about responsibility. It doesn't matter if you are 15 or 50, its about how good of a herper you are. Bottom line--these burms end up in rescues because of two basic reasons. 1. Got too big for them. 2. Got too costly to feed.
Peoples lives change all the time--buying a burm is a giant committment. Are you ready for it? Are you REALLY ready for it? I have the knowledge and experience to keep a burm, and I would love to have one. Truth is, I don't have the space as of now. I understand this, so no burm for me now. One day? Who knows??

As sad as it is, I don't really think much can be done about this problem we face. Pet stores will always be after money. Inspections of pet stores will always be fairly laxed--as long as the store has proper paperwork in place, and has a some-what clean business and the pets are in decent conditions, thats really all they check. Proper legislation? Thats a joke. They would rather ban these beautiful snakes before helping the public keep them in good conditions. Personal breeders? They too will sell, for the most part, to make a buck. This is soooo far gone, I don't see a "fix" in sight.

And that brings us back to us, and the real reason we are here. To help educate and provide knowledge to those that need it. Pass the word along to anyone you know, your teachers, your friends and family, and even your pet stores. Let them know that burms are what they are, and help them make the right decision. When dealing with pet stores, I have went as far as to tell one store that as long as it continues to sell burms, I will not do business there.

Do your part, thats all we can really do here.
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Old 05-02-03, 02:02 AM   #28 (permalink)
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Let's face the facts some of us have ben doing this hoby since we were 6 and others have started at 12-16 others at 45.
we are all capabel herpers in our own ways are we all ready for giant snakes? Nope!

lets put it this way.. Cars some ppl started driving Dady's truck on the farm at 6 others moved in with there uncles and started driving the tractors at 12. Now when they want to drive on the real roads can they? Nope! they need to wait and get there temporary licence at 16 (or yonger if the parent want) and the parents need to sigh for them, in order to pass you need to do a wrighten test. After that you need 1 year of hands on driving experience eithre with your parents or 8 monts with a drivers ed class then you do a driving test and if you pass you get a lincence.

I say we get all the big reptile dealers in Canada and start planing some sort of guide lines to large herps like a book of do's and dont's pass it off to Cites with a petition stating that we do not want a ban we want these animals to be licenced. then if they suport the idea we go straight to parlement with it.

It is a dream but how hard can it be Lets not forget that all the big reptile dealers are on a first name basises with Cites or at least should be buy now.

After that all we need to do is open our doors and say ok here is the book study it and come back for the wrighten test.(yes it can be done in a mater of days) when that is done get them on a program in a large facilatys where the animal they want is housed and bread and get them to work so many hours a week (say 5-8 hours a week)

Lets be realistic here if you want a burm:

0-25 hours baby burm enclosurs cleaning and handeling.
25-100 hours 5-12 feet burms cleaning amd handelig reserch med requierments (how to give certin meds to a burm at home)
100-200 hours 12-20+ feet burm learn how yo work as a team and how to work around diffrent senarios.

After 100-200 hours is up you pass a handeling test.
where the student must make all the judgment calls on how to move the animal where to house it temporarely during cage cleaning be at the head end. A oral explination on what the procedure is and how he/she is going to go abouts to get the job done. And have some one qualified to to over see the whole thing.

You see I see this as a hoby (sport) I was in Karate for many years I wanted to learn and I payed to be thaught.
ppl who want these animals for all the right reasons will not be scared to do this type of thing cause once you have the licence no one can take away the experience you learned and time you put in.

Put on a black belt you are not a black belt, earn a black belt and where a white belt you still have the knowleg of a black belt.

Now do somthing stupide and yes the licence can be revocked but that is just the way life is.

These clases dont need to caust an arm and a leg but still enugh to stariten up ppl decisions and yes there will be drop outs but thows would have ben the burms in the rescues.

Any way it is just a dream of mine and later on in life when i get the cash I will see what I can do with it unles some one reads it and says hey that can be done lets see what such and such person has to say about it.

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Old 05-02-03, 06:52 AM   #29 (permalink)
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That will just never happen....... Like I said, constrictors are not nearly as dangerous as hots no matter how you slice it...... I would hang a 10 foot nasty burm around my neck before I would ever free handle any hot........ And I am sure everyone here would do the same....... I just cant see having to bank hours to own a python........ Besides if someone wants something they will get it anyway, no matter what laws are in place.......
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Old 05-02-03, 02:22 PM   #30 (permalink)
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When we get our drivers liscence we were not great drivers but we did get better with time and practice. The liscence did not make you a better driver all it did was give you the legal right to drive a lethal weapon on the streets. People die because of car wrecks but we accept it because of the convienance of driving. Face it people are not afraid of cars but they are of reptiles. People will be more likely to get there liscence/permit so they can show off with a big snake. It is the presence of these reptiles in public that pose the biggest threat not the reptiles themselves. Sure a 20 foot snake is dangerous and they should not be taken lightly but I know a lot of careless keepers around that have them and are still alive. I believe we have all seen people that should have been constricted years ago but they are still alive. Sure accidents happen and people even kids have been killed by there pet reptiles but it is rare. People are mangled and killed by pet dogs every other week but it is accepted in society because people like furry animals. If you think about it the dangerous large aggressive snakes are already owned by responsable and experienced keepers because the non experienced keepers got rid of them or the snake died from hunger because the scared keeper quit opening the door.
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