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Old 04-18-03, 11:22 AM   #46 (permalink)
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Two points for me to touch on:
1. Do snakes have feelings? I, being the dictionary "buff" I am, I looked up "feeling" with encarta. It listed about 10 different ways that the word is defined as; only 2 of them mentioned anything about emotion of affection. Those 2 where listed as #6 and #7--anyone familiar with a dictionary knows that the most COMMON usages of a word are listed in numerical order--my point is that, once again, feelings do not have to automatically mean showing love, hate, etc. Reacting to touch is feeling. Somewhere in this thread we got off on this tangent about feeling, but I think it has little to do with it, except personal opinion. Do any of us REALLY know if snakes, or anything for that matter, does or does not have feelings? In the example of snakes, we do not know what transpires in a snakes mind--therefore we cannot completely understand how a snake thinks, or how they may or may not show feelings. For the sake of argument, let me throw this out at you. What if a snake shows affection simply by NOT biting you? Without understanding a snakes brain, we cannot know for sure if it is true or not. We define affection and feelings in direct relation to how we associate with it--hugs, kisses, cuddling, etc. Cats show affection by catching a mouse, and many times, leaving it in your doorway or in your shoes. When I accquired my adult borneo, I noticed that if I put him on the table, with all my family around looking at him, he went directly to my 8 year old daughter and crawled up and around her neck. Curious, I repeated this "test" many more times, using different people, different times, and different orders around the table. Each time, he went to her. She does not hold him any more than anyone else, she does not even get involved at feeding time or cage cleaning time. In my opinion, therefore, I believe snakes DO have feelings, and possibly even affection. My point is, that NO ONE CAN EVER KNOW completely without being inside a snakes mind.

2. Snake Lady, as much as I enjoy your debates as well, I must comment on something you said earlier in a post. You said that "Second, I think that the snake in general becomes "aggressive"(like you people tend to say although I do not like the use of the word), when and only when the person that owns them doesn't do a good job of keeping and handling them." That may be the case in some, but not all in general. If you were to house a baby CB ARP and a baby CB BP, and handle niether of them for a year, you WILL get bit by the ARP. You MIGHT by the BP. Again, one species is known to be more "aggressive" than the other. That was my point to start with.

There ya go, Snake Lady, you wanted a reply, and I gave you one.

Thanks for listening and lets not forget to keep this from becoming a flame.
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Old 04-18-03, 12:00 PM   #47 (permalink)
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Agreed, keep this from becoming a flame.

Last edited by V.hb; 04-18-03 at 12:42 PM..
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Old 04-18-03, 12:09 PM   #48 (permalink)
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Quote:
1. Do snakes have feelings? I, being the dictionary "buff" I am, I looked up "feeling" with encarta. It listed about 10 different ways that the word is defined as; only 2 of them mentioned anything about emotion of affection. Those 2 where listed as #6 and #7--anyone familiar with a dictionary knows that the most COMMON usages of a word are listed in numerical order--my point is that, once again, feelings do not have to automatically mean showing love, hate, etc. Reacting to touch is feeling. Somewhere in this thread we got off on this tangent about feeling, but I think it has little to do with it, except personal opinion. Do any of us REALLY know if snakes, or anything for that matter, does or does not have feelings? In the example of snakes, we do not know what transpires in a snakes mind--therefore we cannot completely understand how a snake thinks, or how they may or may not show feelings. For the sake of argument, let me throw this out at you. What if a snake shows affection simply by NOT biting you? Without understanding a snakes brain, we cannot know for sure if it is true or not. We define affection and feelings in direct relation to how we associate with it--hugs, kisses, cuddling, etc. Cats show affection by catching a mouse, and many times, leaving it in your doorway or in your shoes. When I accquired my adult borneo, I noticed that if I put him on the table, with all my family around looking at him, he went directly to my 8 year old daughter and crawled up and around her neck. Curious, I repeated this "test" many more times, using different people, different times, and different orders around the table. Each time, he went to her. She does not hold him any more than anyone else, she does not even get involved at feeding time or cage cleaning time. In my opinion, therefore, I believe snakes DO have feelings, and possibly even affection. My point is, that NO ONE CAN EVER KNOW completely without being inside a snakes mind.
Very good argument and point very well taken. Its really based on different peoples opinions and you say that they do have feelings and thats fine. I on the other hand..well you already know my point of view..i dont feel like re-typing it all for nothing! LOL we get ourselves already!

Quote:
Snake Lady, as much as I enjoy your debates as well, I must comment on something you said earlier in a post. You said that "Second, I think that the snake in general becomes "aggressive"(like you people tend to say although I do not like the use of the word), when and only when the person that owns them doesn't do a good job of keeping and handling them." That may be the case in some, but not all in general. If you were to house a baby CB ARP and a baby CB BP, and handle niether of them for a year, you WILL get bit by the ARP. You MIGHT by the BP. Again, one species is known to be more "aggressive" than the other. That was my point to start with.
My opinion on that is that if you put a ball python in a cage for a year without touching him and you put a rock python in his cage for a year. I think that its not a very good comparison because the rock python has a more active defense(bites) whereas the ball python has a passive defense(goes into a ball). So of course you might get bitten by the rock instead of the ball. BUT if you compare a rock and a retic..then you have a good question going! They have the same line of defense(active).

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Old 04-18-03, 12:10 PM   #49 (permalink)
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[i]I am not calling anyone out I honestly want to know how this fits into your debate.- Tim [/B]
Hey, i honestly feel that its genetics. each snake will react differently. Some dogs are more high-strung than others, iam sure snakes can be the same way. This is just my 'guess'.
good question though.
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Old 04-18-03, 01:07 PM   #50 (permalink)
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Hey, i honestly feel that its genetics. each snake will react differently
Well you are listening to a few things I was saying

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Like my Dad would say''it's the way I built I can't help it dame it''
You really need to learn to debate with your mind and not with your anger. Have you not noticed that me, snakelady, jpaulson we have addmited each others good points and then quoted each other and present our argument or points.this is something you need to start to do. When you are not capable of proving your point all you can do is admit your defeat.

And you really need to stop editing your whole post to something new cause you started to say we are imposible to debate with and now it was changed to.

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Agreed, keep this from becoming a flame.
So plz unless you can debate and admit when you are wrong dont reply and if you do reply dont keep changing your response After some one posted cause the members from ssnakess.com are not idiots just cause they dont respond dosent mean that they dont read what you said.

and if you're gonna go abouts insulting me about the way I do things at least have the guts to leave the post there for the rest to see you never know you might have some one that does not like me either and he/she may try to back up your points if you have some valid ones (now if it was a moderator that removed the post thank you and if so just edit what I said so that way we will understand each other) anyway I need to get to my debate with jpaulson and I do not entend to have to defend myself like this again.

I just edited my post for spelling mistakes..thats what your supposed to do with the edit option.
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Old 04-18-03, 02:14 PM   #51 (permalink)
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Well spoken, chondro.

DEBATE:
1. Talk or argue about something: to talk about something at length and in detail especially as part of a formal exchange of opinion.
2. Think about something: to ponder something carefully

I, myself, do not post here or on any site just to hear myself talk, to increase my post count, or to get stars. I post here to see and hear others opinions in a RESPECTFUL manner and to share my knowledge, and to gain others' knowledge.

V.hb, I too saw that you COMPLETELY changed your post. You were the one starting to turn this into a flame, then to change it to "Agreed, lets not turn this into a flame"?

You, nor anyone else, will EVER see me edit a post. I check my spelling (usually) before I submit, and that should be the only reason to use the edit function. If I make a post that gets attacked or belittled or whatever, so be it. It is just another notch in my constant learning cycle. All that anyone knows of members here is by the words that they type--so I make a point to "ponder carefully" what it is that I type. I respect others, and in return, hope that I EARN theirs. Above all else, I like to see others' replies, and to possibly see things from a different angle.

So, please, if you or anyone wants to participate in these forums, do so out of respect to others, and keep it civil. The day that this site is taken over by flames is the day that I leave.
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Old 04-18-03, 03:05 PM   #52 (permalink)
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my apologies if it was offending, however i edited my posts too add something etc, As i really do not care either if my post count is high or low. My one post that said agreed lets not flame, initially was a post that I felt was unnessecary, and since I cannot remove it, i simply said that, and then carried on the conversation which iam now finished with as my point was taken out of context, which usually happens on the internet as things don't always appear as they seem.
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Old 04-18-03, 03:22 PM   #53 (permalink)
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I dont see how V.hb was offending anyone at all...Honestly,I dont understand why he's wasting his time debating with some of you,from what Ive seen. It's funny how such a simple post can result in somewhat of a war. Lets just wrap it all up and say a snake will do what it needs to survive.
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Old 04-18-03, 03:44 PM   #54 (permalink)
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Now that we clear'd that up we can getback to our debat.

Quote:
Do snakes have feelings?
by jpaulson
Quote:
Feelings does not nessecarily mean affection
by V.hb
Quote:
affection is a type of of emotion!
by V.hb
Quote:
PS Snakes do have feelings,
By V.hb.
Quote:
humans show many of these, snakes dont!
by v.hb
Quote:
Okay..as for the snakes having feelings..you can believe that all you want. Its really nice and cute if you think your ball python has feelings and he loves you because hes never bitten you..thats okay. But always remember deep down that they really dont have feelings and if they have a bad day one day..they could bite you.
by snake lady
Quote:
so lets get this straight:
FEALINGS=love, hate,sadnes,joy,anger......
LOVE=affection
EFFECTION= tendernes,attachement
by chondro python

I am sorry but I needed to recap every thing so I can make sence with everything.

I will be the first to say that this debat was realy fun but it was but it was based only on pure theory and no scientafic reserch can back either side up. but both sides expresed great points and reserched documents any way I am ready to close this debat on the grounds that neither side can realy prove contrary of the other.
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Old 04-18-03, 03:52 PM   #55 (permalink)
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I dont see how V.hb was offending anyone at all...Honestly,I dont understand why he's wasting his time debating with some of you,from what Ive seen. It's funny how such a simple post can result in somewhat of a war.
I will tel you why you dont understand why I was offended it is be cause V.hb edited all is insulting posts and now you could not find them if you wanted to but that doss not change that fact that he said what he said.

Any way it is done and over with and I will forget about it but dont let me catch him doing that again caus I will save all his replys and expos them and send a copy the the adinastration
Like I said if I am wrong I am wrong and I will fess up to it but dont post somthing and remove it so ppl like Turtle Matt can't see why we are mad at you ( in a general sence)
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Old 04-18-03, 04:27 PM   #56 (permalink)
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After receiving a PM from V.hb, he claimed that the reason he edited his post was because he understood how it could of caused a flame, and he chose to change it to prevent that. I commend hom for that. All I would recommend is to really think about what you are going to post before you click that submit button. I always do.

Sadly to say, the debate is over. i agree with Chondro, that neither side can be proved, so it's best to let it stop before it does turn into a flame. For all those that participated, thank you for your input and opinions. It really made me understand some things, and helped me to see the other viewpoints that were offered.
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