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Old 03-16-03, 08:34 AM   #46 (permalink)
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Yea, well that IS true, there are a lot of major screw ups in Canada. However there are some good things too, such as free healthcare and welfare although it is widely abused. As far as the americans, yes I have to give them recognition for their unity as a whole and their pride as a nation.
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Old 03-16-03, 01:44 PM   #47 (permalink)
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yes the free health care is great as well as welfare even if it is abused it still reduces crime to manageable level canada has its up and downs but so does everywhere else it could be much worse much much worse you cant expect everything from one place i guess that we have it soo good here that when anyone trys to do something small it gains my focus
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Old 03-16-03, 02:17 PM   #48 (permalink)
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<< I wouldn't think a member on this forum would talk like that.>>

Sorry, but I was not aware of the proper protocol for speaking your mind. Could you please show me where is the list of what I CAN say so I can please everyone?

"Dude", I DID think really hard about what I said. You assumed that I meant "death to humans" and "biting and killing". Granted, those are slim chances, but they CAN happen. I was referring to the safety of the snake, and the reputation that we as herpers fight hard every day to uphold. A 12' burmese loose in NYC would cause chaos, and ultimately death to the snake. Can you imagine what would happen if someone reported a lost 12' burm in an apartment complex? There would be mass hysteria, and probably an insuing snake hunt. And thats IF the snake is reported. If that person has broken the law with that size reptile, do you think they would STILL pick up the phone and report it? So, what you have here is a threat to humans(yes, a bite could occur--what if it was an ARP?), a threat to small dogs and cats, and, of course, the threat to the snake as well.

I am amazed at how many people just jumped right in and suggested breaking the law!! This is the wrong way to improve reptile keepers reputations. Whether right or wrong, we must obey the laws. I am not saying they are all good laws, but they are laws, and those that violate them hurt the other responsible herpers out there. New legislation is being brought in every day, in cities all over the world--legislation to BAN reptiles from being kept as pets. By willfully violating these laws, you increase the odds of these extreme laws being passed.

Sorry to be a prick, I just had to let that out.
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Old 03-16-03, 02:19 PM   #49 (permalink)
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We have the same kind of laws here in Dartmouth, Nova Scotia. We can not have venomous snakes, Snakes over 2 feet at their adult size, no scorpions or spiders.
But just across the bridge which, is not that long at all, takes you into Halifax and they have no bi- laws like this.
I really can not understand it but thats the things are.
We keep bigger snakes anyway, we just do not tell the wrong people about it.

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Old 03-16-03, 02:54 PM   #50 (permalink)
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well..yes i agree. they make the laws, which are made to be followed. there are no laws in my state, (other than your basic laws). if these laws are broken, then they will probably end up trying to bad herps all together. if ya dont like the laws where ya are, then its probably a good idea to move. or just not keep them.
keeping herps is a privlidge, not a right, and if you violate it, then we loose our privlidges...
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Old 03-16-03, 03:24 PM   #51 (permalink)
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its not a privledge no one has a right to say what you can and cant do unless it causes physical finacial or mental problems as long as you are not forcing anyone to go in to your home to look at your snakes they have no right to take them away where will the reptile keepers go WHEN THERE IS NO WHERE LEFT TO GO EVENTUALLY IT WILL SPREAD So we have a choice let them ban reptiles everywhere and eventually get rid of them Or stop this Bull before its too late I am not saying riot but if we start and organization that helps people fight this legally if every one puts in what cash they can spare these insane bylaws could hopefully be wiped out
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Old 03-16-03, 03:38 PM   #52 (permalink)
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No one has the right to tell you what you can and cannot do? It's not a priviledge? Having a drivers license is a priviledge..yet there are laws that govern that. I am sure that you purchase your car tag, your insurance, and get your license renewed when needed. Why? Because if you do not, you are violating the law, and you do not want that priviledge to be taken away. And, yes, they DO have that power. We, as a society, MUST have laws and regulations to keep order. The ones that BREAK these laws are going to be the reason why they ban reptiles all together.

I offer you one last thought to ponder---what if your neighbor has 20 venomous snakes? What if they get out? Again, we are pretending that there are no laws governing this, so there would be no law against keeping them, and no law licensing him to have them...bottom line, a complete idiot could have 20 ven's right next to you and your children, and you could do nothing, except maybe move. Still think that no one should tell us what we can and cannot do or keep?
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Old 03-16-03, 03:57 PM   #53 (permalink)
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I wasnt saying there should be no licening system for venomas snakes or even large snakes there should be so people that dont know what there getting into dont end up in big trouble since a ball python is relitively harmless and so is a light bulb why is there or anti light bulb laws your only to have 2 15 watt light bulbs and run them for 2 hours since you could burn down your house a drivers licence is much different then having a couple of corn snakes in your home I do belive that there should be licences that people need to get for large and poisonous snakes you obviously didnt read this bit of my post "its not a privledge no one has a right to say what you can and cant do unless it causes physical finacial or mental problems" a person should need a licence to drive car because it can easily cause finacial physical or mental harm me owning a ball python and a jcp causes NONE of those 3 problems yet they would both be illegal if they put that bylaw in place where i live its bull and they dont have the right to do that
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Old 03-16-03, 04:11 PM   #54 (permalink)
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I will agree with that, Bryce. You did not really specify any particulars in your post, so I responded with the worst case scenario. All that I am saying is that a community must have laws in place to protect all involved. Although some are absurd, most are there for a viable reason.

Keep in mind, though, that you are a responsible herper, or for the sake of argument, I will assume that...I do not know you, so I cannot say for sure. BUT, you have to remember that for every responsible herper there is, there is an irresponsible herper harming this hobby. They are the ones that purchase these snakes, and do not realize the COST of food and husbandry. They are also the ones that think it is funny to "show off" their snakes, and that could lead to problems with your other two reasons.

We need to remember that for the most part, these laws are there to combat those "bad" keepers. Actually, they need these laws to protect them from themselves. Without them, the one that really suffers are the reptiles.
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Old 03-16-03, 04:12 PM   #55 (permalink)
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Agreed jpaulson, theres a big difference between rights and priviledges. Its our right to have the choice to eat in a non-smoking environment, not a priviledge to be able to eat a meal without choking on second hand smoke. However its not a right to own an animal, any animal, whether it be a mouse, a dog, or a 14 foot burm. By breaking the laws you are making people who are affraid of snakes even more affraid, because they no longer feel safe relying on the laws that are set forth to protect them
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Old 03-16-03, 04:15 PM   #56 (permalink)
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I can't believe that some of you are under the impression that a 15ft burm isn't a dangerous animal. It is. People have been killed by smaller ones. Granted, the odds of a 15 ft burm on the loose killing somebody are slim, but it's not inconceiveable. A 15 ft burm isn't equivalent to a steak knife, a burm can move around on its own and attack of its own will, it doesn't need to have a person to wield it. A steak knife on the loose would stay where it was and the worst it could do on its own would be to cut someone's foot, were they to step on it.
It's that kind of attitude towards giant pythons that gets laws like these made. Saying that a full grown burm isn't dangerous is just as stupid as saying people shouldn't be allowed to keep reptiles at all. An escaped burm is just as dangerous as a stray dog, sure it's unlikely that it will hurt anyone but that's not to say that it can't or never will. The reason for many cities' reptile by-laws is some event (like a death or escape) that was precipitated by bad husbandry procedures and ignorance on the part of the keeper. I'm gonna go out on a limb here and suggest that people give these animals the respect they deserve (as beautiful creatures AND as potentially dangerous animals).

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Old 03-16-03, 04:36 PM   #57 (permalink)
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Paul. what I meant was that I would think that people on this site have a love for snakes, and/or herps in general. I wouldn't think they would have the mindframe of a misinformed individual who believes snakes are out there to hurt us. However I now read what you just said, and somewhat understood what you meant, my apologies.
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Old 03-16-03, 04:38 PM   #58 (permalink)
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I think this is all about uniformed people making these herp laws that make no sense.

In Simons case, we have a very responsible individual (no I dont know him personally but look at his pics and read his posts, its easy to tell he is level headed) who keeps mostly small species of snakes. Someone made this law in London so no 15 foot burmese would get out and hurt someone. But because that person was uninformed they make the law include all snakes, including snakes over 2 feet.

This makes no sense. And frankly, if I have to break the law so be it. I am not going to allow a close minded, uninformed individual tell me what to do, and what I can't do. I just won't do it.

And if my corns get out and wreak somesort of havoc over Toronto, well the day that happens I will agree we should all follow the law. But it never will. In regards to burmese and such, this really has no place in this thread since Simon does not have any retics or burms to my knowledge. I could be wrong though. We are talking about small species, and mostly colubrids at that. Everyone keep your kids inside! Simons 4 foot Miami corns could get loose! *LOL*

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Old 03-16-03, 04:54 PM   #59 (permalink)
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We, as a society, MUST have laws and regulations to keep order.
How is keeping a few snakes not keeping order? That is what I meant earlier, about me not thinking you would say this kind of thing. Keeping and breeding snakes is not a threat if you are responsible. As I said before, that is like saying you can't have pens. If I am responsible, I will not stab anyone with it and will keep order. If i am not responsible I will stab someone and wont keep order. Are you saying it is fine to ban pens because there is a potential for harm? I am saying that for boids or coloubrids, and such of the sort, banning these are ridiculous, no one mentioned venomous snakes.

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BUT, you have to remember that for every responsible herper there is, there is an irresponsible herper harming this hobby. They are the ones that purchase these snakes, and do not realize the COST of food and husbandry.
Again, I am going to make the same argument. There are people who can keep knifes in the house responsibly. However there are also those who kill and stab people with them, shall we ban knifes now?

Now Los Ministro, I never said that a burm wasn't dangerous, but please listen to yourself. Your idea is that anything which poses a threat should be banned. Yes, there is a potential threat with large snakes, there is a potential threat with just about everything. Alright so I am going to open a town, I am going to ban ALL humans because they are not an inanimate object and CAN hurt someone because they have a mind of your own. Don't get me wrong, I do not feel any Tom, **** or Harry should be able to house a big snake, I am just saying that the thought that snakes are mean green killing machines are what makes these ridiculous laws in the first place, make it so that one must have a permit to own one don't just ban them all together. Dogs arent banned, and compare the amount of snake related injuries to the amount of dog related injuries, there is a big difference. The reason dogs aren't banned are because they do not have the reputation of "evil." All I am trying to say is the laws are unfair. Finally, why do we keep referring to burms. The laws made don't say you cannot have a burm, they say you cannot have snakes of a certain size or specie, TWO FEET IN THIS CASE! Please let me know the threat a corn snake or a garter snake poses against us, include a ball python and childrens python in there as boids are banned in a lot of places as well. Yes, they can bite, wow.

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And if my corns get out and wreak somesort of havoc over Toronto, well the day that happens I will agree we should all follow the law. But it never will.
AMEN.
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Old 03-16-03, 05:01 PM   #60 (permalink)
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One day we will have to put air bags on pencil erasers because someone's bratty kid poked their eye.

The regulations will never end. What's unfortunate is that those of use who believe in most of the regulations are put off by the ones they WON'T STOP ADDING and the ones that are stupid and misinformed.

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