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Old 06-24-18, 03:04 AM   #1 (permalink)
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Snake Heat "light"

So I bought this heat bulb I thought it would light up but it didn't. Although it produced heat is this good for snakes
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Old 06-24-18, 04:12 AM   #2 (permalink)
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Re: Snake Heat "light"

Are you talking about a Ceramic Heat Emitter (CHE)?
If so, yes, they are good. Snakes don't require a light cycle, and actually thrive better without lots of light.
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Old 06-24-18, 01:32 PM   #3 (permalink)
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Re: Snake Heat "light"

Only issue with a CHE is they suck the humidity out more that other bear sources
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Old 06-24-18, 03:28 PM   #4 (permalink)
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Re: Snake Heat "light"

Quote:
Originally Posted by craigafrechette View Post
[...]Snakes don't require a light cycle, and actually thrive better without lots of light.

What makes you think that?? Donít tell me "hundreds of breeders keeping their animals in racks prove it" again, we had this discussion just a few weeks before.

How do snakes regulate their temperature in the wild? They will seek a sun lit place to bask in the light until they get their preferred temperature and will eventually move to another spot with less light or into shade. This kind of behavior can be seen by all kinds of snakes, diurnal as well as nocturnal snakes.

What use is good eyesight with the ability to differentiate different colors and to see even in the UV spectrum? If there is no light this ability is useless, you deprive your snake the use of their eyes.
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Old 06-24-18, 04:08 PM   #5 (permalink)
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Re: Snake Heat "light"

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Originally Posted by Roman View Post
What makes you think that?? Donít tell me "hundreds of breeders keeping their animals in racks prove it" again, we had this discussion just a few weeks before.

How do snakes regulate their temperature in the wild? They will seek a sun lit place to bask in the light until they get their preferred temperature and will eventually move to another spot with less light or into shade. This kind of behavior can be seen by all kinds of snakes, diurnal as well as nocturnal snakes.

What use is good eyesight with the ability to differentiate different colors and to see even in the UV spectrum? If there is no light this ability is useless, you deprive your snake the use of their eyes.
Snakes seek out sun lit places for the temps, not the light. Since we are able to provide the temps without the use of bright light, we don't need to add additional light. My snakes are all in display enclosures and receive natural light during daylight hours.

The comment about depriving my snakes the use of their eyes is just silly.
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Old 06-25-18, 04:35 PM   #6 (permalink)
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Re: Snake Heat "light"

Now I am confused. Your first statement
Quote:
Originally Posted by craigafrechette View Post
Snakes don't require a light cycle, and actually thrive better without lots of light.
but you provide your snakes with a day/night cycle and natural light?? Why if they don’t need it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by craigafrechette View Post
Snakes seek out sun lit places for the temps, not the light.
Any reference for this statement?

Quote:
Originally Posted by craigafrechette View Post
Since we are able to provide the temps without the use of bright light, we don't need to add additional light. My snakes are all in display enclosures and receive natural light during daylight hours.

The comment about depriving my snakes the use of their eyes is just silly.
As I said before, snakes associate light with heat (or vice versa), so they will initially seek heat at the brightest spot in your enclosure. They might be able to learn that there is another (darker) place actually warmer than that, but this not what they would expect.

Snakes seek sun lit places not only for warmth, but the sunlight has also several physiological effects. For your information a few papers about this subject...

Roman Muryn: 01 Temperature and Heat #09: Sunlight Heat and Basking, 2018

"Here are some reasons for basking, all of which may need some or all of the three kinds of
wavelength which we discussed above.
1. Sheer pleasure.
2. Circadian cycle excitation through the parietal eye.
3. D3 capture through UV irradiation.
4. Increase metabolism through warmth capture
5. Use UV and IR for managing Fungal and Bacterial infections
6. Raise temperature to manage viral infections.
7. Use NIR for wound healing
8. Use NIR for deeper heat penetration and heat sinking
9. Use NIR for internal egg and neonate incubation Esp viviparous animals)
10. Digesting food
11. Drying and heating to aid in shedding
12. Parasite management.
You can see from the above list that it is not only the heat element that is important; it is the quality of total light that we must get right. […]"

NIR = Near Infra-Red (NIR). NIR starts with just-visible dark red at about 650nm and extends to 1400nm.

Dennis Oonincx, Jeroen van Leeuwen: Evidence-Based Reptile Housing and Nutrition, 2017

"Visible light (400–700 nm) has several effects on reptile behavior. First, light intensity is used as an indication of temperature; higher intensities are associated with higher temperatures. This has been shown for basking species, such as anoles and turtles, but also in the nocturnal tokay gecko.2–5 Light during the night can, however, suppress activity, as was shown in adult prairie rattlesnakes. […]"

I don’t want to quote the whole paper, the authors describe the usage and the effects of visible light, UV and infra-red light.

Dr Henry Brames: Aspects of Light and Reptile Immunity, 2006

Interesting paper, it covers aspects of reptile immune metabolism, but it also shows how the perception of colors differs if a spectrum of light is missing (like not providing full spectrum light).

Mark J. Acierno et Al.: Effects of ultraviolet radiation on plasma 25-hydroxyvitamin D3 concentrations in corn snakes (Elaphe guttata), 2008

This paper shows that providing UVB increases the plasma concentration of 25-hydroxyvitamin D3 in Corn Snakes significantly compared to a control group that were not exposed to UVB.

In addition just a few examples about enrichment (of which light is certainly one key factor)

Gordon M. Burghardt: Environmental enrichment and cognitive complexity in reptiles and amphibians: Concepts, review, and implications for captive populations

Meredith J. Bashaw et al: Does enrichment improve reptile welfare? Leopard geckos (Eublepharis macularius) respond to five types of environmental enrichment

Simon Bourguigne: REPTILE HUSBANDRY CONSIDERATIONS FOR VIVARIUM DESIGN

There are many more reports (peer reviewed papers as well as anecdotal reports). If you are interested, you should consider to join the facebook group “Advancing Herpetological Husbandry”, this group has proven to be a wealth of interesting information for me and the file section is a real treasure trove.

So I suggest you do some reading before you tell me “snakes don’t need light and don’t benefit from it” again…
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Old 06-25-18, 06:03 PM   #7 (permalink)
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Re: Snake Heat "light"

If you're having to choose between light and heat, then heat is obviously more important. I feel that a good light cycle is beneficial for most snakes.

What about diurnal snakes? They surely aren't out just to soak up heat. Many species of snakes are active during the daytime.
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Old 06-25-18, 09:41 PM   #8 (permalink)
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Re: Snake Heat "light"

The vast majority of snakes I find in the wild here in the USA do not bask in the sun much at all, they hide under rocks which are themselves warmed by the sun, but they spend the vast majority of their lives hidden away in darkness. Gravid female timbers, racers, and some watersnakes are notable exceptions, though. Richard Hoyer actually kept his rubber boas he used for studies just like he found them in the field. He had a spot light shinning on a piece of tin in their cages. In MO during the summer, many snakes are active at night when it is cooler and safer to come out.
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Old 06-26-18, 05:35 AM   #9 (permalink)
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Re: Snake Heat "light"

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Originally Posted by Roman View Post
Now I am confused. Your first statement but you provide your snakes with a day/night cycle and natural light?? Why if they donít need it?


As I said before, snakes associate light with heat (or vice versa), so they will initially seek heat at the brightest spot in your enclosure. They might be able to learn that there is another (darker) place actually warmer than that, but this not what they would expect.

So I suggest you do some reading before you tell me ďsnakes donít need light and donít benefit from itĒ againÖ
I do NOT provide my snakes with a light cycle. They get the natural light that enters the room.

My snakes NEVER go to the brightest spot, they seek out the temps they want, and are almost always hidden. They know how to thermoregulate naturally. They don't see a bright spot and think "I bet it's warm there".

I've been in this hobby since 1999-2000ish and have done plenty of reading, thanks.
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Old 06-26-18, 05:36 AM   #10 (permalink)
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Re: Snake Heat "light"

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If you're having to choose between light and heat, then heat is obviously more important. I feel that a good light cycle is beneficial for most snakes.

What about diurnal snakes? They surely aren't out just to soak up heat. Many species of snakes are active during the daytime.
Active? Yes. But driven to bask in light? No.
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Old 06-26-18, 05:37 AM   #11 (permalink)
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Re: Snake Heat "light"

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Originally Posted by pet_snake_78 View Post
The vast majority of snakes I find in the wild here in the USA do not bask in the sun much at all, they hide under rocks which are themselves warmed by the sun, but they spend the vast majority of their lives hidden away in darkness. Gravid female timbers, racers, and some watersnakes are notable exceptions, though. Richard Hoyer actually kept his rubber boas he used for studies just like he found them in the field. He had a spot light shinning on a piece of tin in their cages. In MO during the summer, many snakes are active at night when it is cooler and safer to come out.
Thank you...
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Old 06-26-18, 06:09 AM   #12 (permalink)
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Re: Snake Heat "light"

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Originally Posted by craigafrechette View Post
I do NOT provide my snakes with a light cycle. They get the natural light that enters the room.
I must've misunderstood...because that constitutes a "light cycle" to me. The only reason I have lights on my snakes is because the room they're in doesn't get much light. I should clarify I don't use heat lamps, just LEDs so they get SOME light during the day and aren't trapped in darkness most of their lives. You're snakes still have the benefit of the cycle of day/night with the natural light coming into the room, even if it's not super bright.

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Originally Posted by craigafrechette View Post
Active? Yes. But driven to bask in light? No.
That was my point. Many snakes are active during the day. I wasn't referring to basking at all. Again, when I made my initial comment I wasn't arguing that snakes need light to bask in. I just believe it is beneficial (for some species) to have some sort of cycle between day and night. I guess it also depends on what species we're talking about it.

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Originally Posted by pet_snake_78 View Post
The vast majority of snakes I find in the wild here in the USA do not bask in the sun much at all, they hide under rocks which are themselves warmed by the sun, but they spend the vast majority of their lives hidden away in darkness. Gravid female timbers, racers, and some watersnakes are notable exceptions, though. Richard Hoyer actually kept his rubber boas he used for studies just like he found them in the field. He had a spot light shinning on a piece of tin in their cages. In MO during the summer, many snakes are active at night when it is cooler and safer to come out.
Very true. However there are still some species - garters, ribbons, rough greens, timbers, racers, water snakes, rat snakes, etc. - that continue to be active during the day, even in mid summer in south Louisiana. When it's not stupid hot outside here, that list expands by a good bit. Are they basking? Of course not since it's so hot. However they can still be found out during the daytime. Then again, I also wasn't arguing that snakes need a light cycle to bask (not sure if your comment was directed towards Roman's comment or mine).


My main point had nothing to do with heat/basking. I was simply saying that I believe some snakes benefit from having some sort of light cycle to mimic day/night. Not necessarily super bright, but something so they aren't in complete darkness most of their lives. Craig, I know you don't keep your snakes like that (I didn't think you did, even before mentioning the natural light), but I know a couple of keepers who have snake rooms that get little to no light except for when they're in the room with the light on. I know some snakes may not care one way or the other, and I also know that all of their necessities are being met, but that's more of what I was arguing against.
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Old 06-27-18, 02:23 AM   #13 (permalink)
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Re: Snake Heat "light"

My corn ended up seeking out a UV lizard basking lamp when it was on the enclosure rather than the che of the same temp so I let her keep it to run during the day. With huge differences in seasonal and day/night temps in Iowa it is quite common for our few reptile species to be basking part of the day and seek cover come noon to return for what heat they can get from sun warmed objects as it gets dark. Even taking common night hikes it's before noon and prior to sunset that we run into the most snakes completely in the open. From dekay brown snakes and garters winding through the shorter grass at that time to bulls, rats, or water snakes actually up on the rocks and roadways. I spent about 4months of every year for several years moving a bull off the driveway before driving to class late morning several times a week at one place I lived. People were not impressed when informed the snake moving pole is left on the nearby tree if you need it.

The argument really isn't relevant though. Either way it's too cold in my house to cut all heat at night so regardless of lighting them during the day or not they need some heat source without light for the other half of the 24hr period. A che or equivalent lightless heat source is still a necessary part of the system. You don't want to be heating most species only while you have the light fully on or always having light on. It also causes some thermostat complications to have your light turn off or dim too low when your heat gets too high if you do want all that light. Even when I do have a heat source with light it's supplemental to their base CHE that runs 24/7 rather than used to significantly raise the heat by itself so those enclosures just have a certain degree of increase or the che runs less while lit.
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