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Old 05-06-18, 04:22 PM   #46 (permalink)
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Re: I think I'm done.

I never understood why anyone would like to keep his/her reptiles in a tub or a rack for an extended period of time. In my opinion a tub, a rack or a tank/aquarium is a suboptimal way to keep any reptile.

The biggest disadvantage is the fact that all of these solutions are top opening, so everything you do (maintenance, feeding etc) you do from above your reptile. For a reptile everything coming from above is usually a BAD thing (e.g. bird of prey), so each time you open the lid your reptile will be nervous, afraid or ready to defend itself depending on it’s personality. In time it will probably learn that the usual manipulation is not so bad after all but at least in the beginning this puts additional (and avoidable) stress on the animal.

I want to be able to watch my snakes, to see their behavior, their moving around or just sitting on a branch or inside their hiding, but I want to do this without having to disturb them. While some tubes with clear plastic walls might enable you to see them, pulling a tub out of the rack to watch them is definitely a disturbance for them.

The racks or tubs I have seen so far are not big enough to keep even a medium sized snake (100 cm / 3ft or longer) in them for an extended time. I might be wrong and there are bigger tubs out there, but so far I haven’t seen any.

I use tubs for putting some of my snakes in during any extended maintenance, if I have to separate them for feeding or as a short time/emergency quarantine enclosure, but never for any longer period.

Quote:
Originally Posted by EL Ziggy View Post
@ Sirtalis- What standards are you using to measure good health and what do you think the quantifiable benefits are of bioactive enclosures? I've kept critters in tubs, tanks, and pvc enclosures but I haven't noticed any differences in their eating, shedding, pooping or activity levels. They all seem to be thriving as far as I can tell.

It’s not so much about bioactive or not but about enrichment.

“eating, shedding, pooping”, you might also add mating, that’s just the basic survival. It probably shows how hard to kill some of our “pet reptiles” like ball pythons, kingsnakes, corn snakes etc. are if they can be kept under such minimalistic conditions these “reputable, successful breeders and thousands of keepers” do. But the most basic living conditions, the least space possible, is this really what we want? Speaking solely for myself this is definitely not what I want. I restrict the amount of snakes I keep in order to provide every snakes with enough room to move around and different options for temperatures, light intensity and UV as I described in my previous post.

El Ziggy, there are numerous studies showing that reptiles in general and snakes in particular benefit from enrichment in their enclosure. Enrichment in providing enough room to move around in any dimension, gradients of light (including UV), thermal gradients, structured environment (branches, multiple hides and covers etc) and different food to just name the most basic form of enrichment.

Just a few examples
Gordon M. Burghardt: Environmental enrichment and cognitive complexity in reptiles and amphibians: Concepts, review, and implications for captive populations

Meredith J. Bashaw et al: Does enrichment improve reptile welfare? Leopard geckos (Eublepharis macularius) respond to five types of environmental enrichment

Simon Bourguigne: REPTILE HUSBANDRY CONSIDERATIONS FOR VIVARIUM DESIGN

There are many more reports (peer reviewed papers as well as anecdotal reports). If you are interested, you should consider to join the facebook group “Advancing Herpetological Husbandry”, this group has proven to be a wealth of interesting information for me and the file section is a real treasure trove.



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Originally Posted by Bandit View Post
I feel like the whole "replicating the wild" thing is a load of bs. Even if you go bioactive, you are still putting your animal in a controlled and sterile environment, just to a lesser degree than one that's in a tub. You'll never get anywhere near a true replication of the wild when keeping something in captivity. You'll see more healthy animals in tubs than you will in the wild, where they have to encounter predation, disease, lack of food, etc. on the regular.

Sorry for the rant...again, I don't have a dog in this fight and I personally am not a fan of tubs (and I have nothing against bioactive setups). I just can't stand when people acting like their setups are superior because they go bioactive.


A bioactive enclosure is up to a certain point a “controlled environment”, but it is certainly not sterile. The specific characteristic of a bioactive enclosure is the “cleanup crew”, but this crew consists not only of millipedes, springtails and isopods, the real working crew are the bacterial destruents.

By going bioactive an enclosure is not necessarily superior to a non bioactive setup, but if you use living plants as part of your “naturalistic” setup you provide an additional form of enrichment.



Quote:
Originally Posted by craigafrechette View Post
I think the several comments have proven that going bioactive isn't "the right thing". That user has been proven by several people to be misinformed and unreliable, as well as ignorant. The thousands upon thousands of keepers who keep their snakes in tubs can't all be wrong, especially considering the world's most successful and reputable keepers and breeders primarily use tubs.


This is a nice killer argument. So if thousand upon thousand people where convinced the earth was a disk this makes it true? If they thought the sun would turn around the earth this makes it true??

Who are these “world's most successful and reputable keepers and breeders [who] primarily use tubs”? Famous breeders like Brian Barczyk?? That’s really a nice role model. Don’t get me wrong, I suppose Mr. Barczyk is a nice person, but the way he keeps his animals is just disgusting.
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Old 05-06-18, 05:28 PM   #47 (permalink)
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Re: I think I'm done.

@ Roman- Let me start by saying your critters are top notch and your enclosures are next level. I wish I had the time, space and coin to do it big like that. I also have nothing against enrichment for any animal including humans. I agree that lots of space, climbing apparatuses, UV lights, and plants likely provide additional stimuli that contribute to an animal's well being. I'll admit that your animals have first class accommodations but how much happier and healthier are they than the vast majority of snakes from lesser enriched environments? And how do you measure that happiness and health? Are your animals larger or more active? Do they live longer than those in tubs, tanks and PVC enclosures? It does come down to the simple survival basics for me. Food, Water, Heat, Shelter and Love are all these animals need to thrive. Everything else is just luxuries. Not that there's anything wrong with that at all.
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Old 05-06-18, 07:17 PM   #48 (permalink)
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Re: I think I'm done.

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Originally Posted by Roman View Post
A bioactive enclosure is up to a certain point a “controlled environment”, but it is certainly not sterile. The specific characteristic of a bioactive enclosure is the “cleanup crew”, but this crew consists not only of millipedes, springtails and isopods, the real working crew are the bacterial destruents.

By going bioactive an enclosure is not necessarily superior to a non bioactive setup, but if you use living plants as part of your “naturalistic” setup you provide an additional form of enrichment.
I understand that bioactive enclosures are not sterile in the normal sense. I guess I was more saying that it is still much more sterile than what a snake is exposed to in its natural environment. Just a matter of degree I suppose. And I agree with you 100% on the topic of enrichment. As I had said in my previous post, I've never used tubs/racks and don't intend to. I don't like the idea of keeping my snakes in a small box. I'd rather give them as much room and enrichment as I can. And while I know that you don't act like your setups are superior because of the bioactive aspect (although, if I'm being honest, you have some of the best setups I've seen), there are people who do. My issue lies with the statements involving "replicating the wild" simply because that's a false point, in my opinion. I'm not arguing any other aspects of a bioactive setup aside from the alleged replication of the wild. That's probably just the field herper in me coming out though.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Roman View Post
Famous breeders like Brian Barczyk?? That’s really a nice role model. Don’t get me wrong, I suppose Mr. Barczyk is a nice person, but the way he keeps his animals is just disgusting.
This is definitely a point that you and I can agree on!
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Old 05-07-18, 04:09 PM   #49 (permalink)
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Re: I think I'm done.

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Originally Posted by EL Ziggy View Post
[...] I wish I had the time, space and coin to do it big like that. I also have nothing against enrichment for any animal including humans. I agree that lots of space, climbing apparatuses, UV lights, and plants likely provide additional stimuli that contribute to an animal's well being.
Not all of my enclosures are big (and expensive), here is one of my oldest enclosure, now occupied by my pair of Aesculapian snakes (Zamenis longissimus). It’s a plywood enclosure, 120 x 80 x 80 cm (ca 4 x 3 x 3 ft), I used a rather old style fluorescent lighting until recently, when it finally failed I replaced it with a new set of LED lights for the ambient lighting. In the right corner is a 50W metal halide light for heat and UV, a few stones, branches and some plants, that’s all what it takes to provide a natural looking, enriched environment with several different micro habitats.



Quote:
Originally Posted by EL Ziggy View Post
I'll admit that your animals have first class accommodations but how much happier and healthier are they than the vast majority of snakes from lesser enriched environments? And how do you measure that happiness and health? Are your animals larger or more active? Do they live longer than those in tubs, tanks and PVC enclosures? It does come down to the simple survival basics for me. Food, Water, Heat, Shelter and Love are all these animals need to thrive. Everything else is just luxuries. Not that there's anything wrong with that at all.
I suppose my snakes are more active as the same snake would be in a smaller enclosure. When I got my first tiger rat snake Spilotes pullatus I had to keep him in a relative small enclosure until his new one was finished. The snake was ca 180 cm (6 ft) long, the enclosure was 120 x 70 x 150 cm (4 x 2 x 5 ft) and it was resting in one of the branches at the very top of the enclosure for most of the time. When I moved him into his new home, he was much more active, you could actually see different activity patterns in different snakes, one male was a “early bird”, active as soon as the lights were on, another male became active about two hours later, the female was somewhere in between.

To answer your question, no my snakes are not particularly larger then other snakes of the same species might be, I think they show a wider set of their natural behavior, but this is my subjective impression, nothing I can quantify. However, one of the admins in the facebook group I mentioned quoted a study which compared the quantity of stress hormones in two groups of snakes, one was kept under minimalistic conditions, one in enriched enclosures. The snakes in the enriched enclosures had significantly lower levels of stress related hormones in their blood. I couldn’t find the actual quote (FB timeline sucks if you search something) but if you are interested I can PM him if he can provide me with the actual study.

There is an interesting paper about snakemites and bioactive enclosures. There is a strong indication that fast breeding invertebrates like springtails or isopods outcompete snakemites for places to lay eggs. Particularly springtails seem to be responsible for breaking the snakesmites lifecycle, there are currently studies if they even actively eat snakemite eggs.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Bandit View Post
I understand that bioactive enclosures are not sterile in the normal sense. I guess I was more saying that it is still much more sterile than what a snake is exposed to in its natural environment. Just a matter of degree I suppose. And I agree with you 100% on the topic of enrichment. [...] My issue lies with the statements involving "replicating the wild" simply because that's a false point, in my opinion. I'm not arguing any other aspects of a bioactive setup aside from the alleged replication of the wild. That's probably just the field herper in me coming out though.

OK, you certainly don’t want any parasites or pathogenic bacteria in your setup, so in this instance I try to keep it as sterile as possible…

When I started with keeping snakes back in the 80th every book you got mentioned to get “a piece of nature into your home” as one of the reasons why you should keep a reptile. I would not take this phrase to literally, not in the sense to create an exact replication of a natural habitat, but as some natural “objects” in your home, same as potted plants.
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Old 05-08-18, 09:39 AM   #50 (permalink)
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Re: I think I'm done.

I'm not going to read through that wall of text, but I am just going to say, that the material of the cage does not make it suboptimal or optimal. It's the size and the way it's set up.

You can set a tub up to have a panel or a CHE. You can add bioactive elements. You can make it big and enriching.

Now, the downfall is that tubs only come in so many sizes...which means unless you're keeping a very tiny snake like a hognose or KSB or something, your snake will very likely outgrow a tub (imo).

But just because it's a tub doesn't make it inherently wrong.
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Old 05-08-18, 11:48 AM   #51 (permalink)
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Re: I think I'm done.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bigsnakegirl785 View Post
I'm not going to read through that wall of text, but I am just going to say, that the material of the cage does not make it suboptimal or optimal. It's the size and the way it's set up.

You can set a tub up to have a panel or a CHE. You can add bioactive elements. You can make it big and enriching.

Now, the downfall is that tubs only come in so many sizes...which means unless you're keeping a very tiny snake like a hognose or KSB or something, your snake will very likely outgrow a tub (imo).

But just because it's a tub doesn't make it inherently wrong.
IF you had bothered “to read through that wall of text” you would have read that my issue is not with the material but with other issues

- top opening
- size
- often rack mounted

to name the most important. Because it is a tub doesn’t make it wrong, but it poses several avoidable problems, so it is not an optimal solution and you can avoid the problems by choosing a dedicated terrarium, which is a much better solution for almost all problems I can think of.
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Old 05-09-18, 09:39 AM   #52 (permalink)
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Re: I think I'm done.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Roman View Post
IF you had bothered “to read through that wall of text” you would have read that my issue is not with the material but with other issues

- top opening
- size
- often rack mounted

to name the most important. Because it is a tub doesn’t make it wrong, but it poses several avoidable problems, so it is not an optimal solution and you can avoid the problems by choosing a dedicated terrarium, which is a much better solution for almost all problems I can think of.
I certainly could have, but there are less wordy ways to phrase things. Such as what you have done here in this reply. A summary of some sort is usually quite appreciated, and even many academic writings make use of them. Otherwise, you make what you write inaccessible and a little daunting to read.

I'm not necessarily saying cut down on what you write, but offering some sort of summary, review, what have you, is a good way to emphasize certain things and draw attention. Most people aren't just going to read a wall of text for the sake of it, you need to be capable and willing to break it down. This hobby is not filled with academics used to reading and writing academic papers, so accessibility should be at the forefront of discussion. Otherwise, are you really discussing for the purpose of spreading knowledge, or tooting your own horn?

The downfalls you listed are definitely important, but most can be worked around and aren't necessarily true 100% of the time. I do agree that a well-designed viv from the beginning is ideal, but isn't always realistic for the average reptile owner. You can still make those "suboptimal set ups" adequate with good planning, and when using them for appropriate species or during appropriate stages in their life.

So, I don't really agree with the "no tubs not ever" stance you seem to be putting off on what I have read. When I have more time, perhaps I'll read over more of the rest. Saying "just replace your tub with a better set up" is not an appropriate response, and is not helpful.
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Old 05-09-18, 02:43 PM   #53 (permalink)
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Re: I think I'm done.

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Originally Posted by bigsnakegirl785 View Post
I certainly could have, but there are less wordy ways to phrase things. Such as what you have done here in this reply. A summary of some sort is usually quite appreciated, and even many academic writings make use of them. Otherwise, you make what you write inaccessible and a little daunting to read.

I'm not necessarily saying cut down on what you write, but offering some sort of summary, review, what have you, is a good way to emphasize certain things and draw attention. Most people aren't just going to read a wall of text for the sake of it, you need to be capable and willing to break it down. This hobby is not filled with academics used to reading and writing academic papers, so accessibility should be at the forefront of discussion. Otherwise, are you really discussing for the purpose of spreading knowledge, or tooting your own horn?
Oh, I suppose some of my posts (OK, probably most of them) are a little longer than the average post in this forum, guilty as charged…

There is a reason behind this. I am a systems and network guy, but part of my job is also to teach my users and sometimes external attendees as well. Since 1995 I have accumulated something like 15,000 hours in adult education and training, from beginners to specialty workshops for experts. What I learned in doing this is that you can’t teach an adult by saying “do it because I tell you so”, you have to provide the reason behind it and if possible an example to explain something.

This has certainly rubbed of, I know that I sometimes try to explain something which might be obvious (at least for some/most readers), but that’s another thing, you can’t assume that everybody you explain something to has already a certain knowledge, you always start with some basics to lay the groundworks.

I don’t have the ambition to write any “academic paper” in this forum, but if I think it is necessary to make my point and to explain my reasoning I will do so, without adding a summery and a conclusion for the “lazy” reader. If you don’t want to read it all, but comment it anyway, I might call certain points to your attention I made in the previous post.

Accessibility is a nice thing to have, but as I said, in my opinion it is better to provide your reasoning in the first place and not handing it out in pieces one post at a time.

“Tooting my own horn” – never heard that before, learned something new here… But seriously, don’t you think if I really wanted to toot my horn I would post more often than I do? I write something if I think I can add some helpful information, preferable first-hand experience I made myself. I don’t need to mix myself in any thread just to push my post count.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bigsnakegirl785 View Post
The downfalls you listed are definitely important, but most can be worked around and aren't necessarily true 100% of the time. I do agree that a well-designed viv from the beginning is ideal, but isn't always realistic for the average reptile owner. You can still make those "suboptimal set ups" adequate with good planning, and when using them for appropriate species or during appropriate stages in their life.

So, I don't really agree with the "no tubs not ever" stance you seem to be putting off on what I have read. When I have more time, perhaps I'll read over more of the rest. Saying "just replace your tub with a better set up" is not an appropriate response, and is not helpful.
Why not? If I think a tub is not the optimal enclosure to provide the enrichment we could provide to any of our reptiles if we used an adequately sized enclosure with the right equipment, why should I not point it out? Especially if I provide the reasons why I think it to be suboptimal?

I suppose we can agree on not agreeing on the usability of tubs as longtime enclosures. I explained my reasons why I think tubs are suboptimal, if you don’t agree or only partly agree I suppose I can’t change your mind. I suppose you think the initial costs of buying a terrarium is more than the “average beginner” is willing to invest. On the other hand, a glass terrarium or a plywood terrarium 120 x 60 x 60 cm (4 x 2 x 2 ft) is about 150 Euro (ca 180 USD) if you buy it retail. If you consider the costs of all the other equipment, the snake, future costs for energy, food, probably vet etc this doesn’t seem an enormous amount for the initial investment if it lets you add so much more enrichment for your reptile…

So, I did it again, writing a wall of text, explaining my reasoning, providing examples, teaching (I hope you don’t think of it as preaching)
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Old 05-11-18, 08:51 AM   #54 (permalink)
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Re: I think I'm done.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Roman View Post
Oh, I suppose some of my posts (OK, probably most of them) are a little longer than the average post in this forum, guilty as charged…

There is a reason behind this. I am a systems and network guy, but part of my job is also to teach my users and sometimes external attendees as well. Since 1995 I have accumulated something like 15,000 hours in adult education and training, from beginners to specialty workshops for experts. What I learned in doing this is that you can’t teach an adult by saying “do it because I tell you so”, you have to provide the reason behind it and if possible an example to explain something.

This has certainly rubbed of, I know that I sometimes try to explain something which might be obvious (at least for some/most readers), but that’s another thing, you can’t assume that everybody you explain something to has already a certain knowledge, you always start with some basics to lay the groundworks.

I don’t have the ambition to write any “academic paper” in this forum, but if I think it is necessary to make my point and to explain my reasoning I will do so, without adding a summery and a conclusion for the “lazy” reader. If you don’t want to read it all, but comment it anyway, I might call certain points to your attention I made in the previous post.

Accessibility is a nice thing to have, but as I said, in my opinion it is better to provide your reasoning in the first place and not handing it out in pieces one post at a time.

“Tooting my own horn” – never heard that before, learned something new here… But seriously, don’t you think if I really wanted to toot my horn I would post more often than I do? I write something if I think I can add some helpful information, preferable first-hand experience I made myself. I don’t need to mix myself in any thread just to push my post count.



Why not? If I think a tub is not the optimal enclosure to provide the enrichment we could provide to any of our reptiles if we used an adequately sized enclosure with the right equipment, why should I not point it out? Especially if I provide the reasons why I think it to be suboptimal?

I suppose we can agree on not agreeing on the usability of tubs as longtime enclosures. I explained my reasons why I think tubs are suboptimal, if you don’t agree or only partly agree I suppose I can’t change your mind. I suppose you think the initial costs of buying a terrarium is more than the “average beginner” is willing to invest. On the other hand, a glass terrarium or a plywood terrarium 120 x 60 x 60 cm (4 x 2 x 2 ft) is about 150 Euro (ca 180 USD) if you buy it retail. If you consider the costs of all the other equipment, the snake, future costs for energy, food, probably vet etc this doesn’t seem an enormous amount for the initial investment if it lets you add so much more enrichment for your reptile…

So, I did it again, writing a wall of text, explaining my reasoning, providing examples, teaching (I hope you don’t think of it as preaching)
I generally prefer to offer the succinct version first, if possible, and then separately dive deeper into the details. This way, a reader can pick or choose where they want to start at, while still providing that information. This is harder to do when I'm tired, however, so in those cases I just provide the most relevant stuff and expand later if asked. XD

I have written my fair share of academic papers in the past, and they are split up into different sections by relevance, with an introduction and conclusion, so that the body may be skipped over if time or attention is an issue. Some portions may not be relevant for certain audiences (such as portions discussing methods if you aren't a researcher yourself), and can be skipped without hindering the usefulness of the rest of the paper.



As far as "why not":

Tubs are cheap, and easy to come by. You don't have to wait days, weeks, or even months for an enclosure to be shipped to you or to finish building your own. You can just pop on down to the local Walmart or Target and pick up a tub. From there, all you really need to do is drill/melt a few air holes and stick a heating pad/tape and thermostat, and it's most of the way done.

Those tubs can then be modified to have lots of cover and even climbing (for a small enough snake). If you turn it to the side, you can even make it front-opening. Since it's plastic, it is supremely easy to modify in all kinds of ways, so you can go pretty much vanilla or outfit it to fit your needs.

So, not only is cost a factor, but accessibility and convenience is also a factor.

Now, again. I will argue that certain species should not be housed in tubs as they simply don't offer enough room, and they may outgrow a tub very quickly. Such as retics or Burms. But a species that gets large, but grows slowly? Can easily be started out in a tub at first and upgraded later. This can reduce the housing costs, and instead of putting out hundreds of dollars from the get-go, you can spend several years saving up or putting together a more elaborate set up.

Tubs are also easier to move than vivs, especially if those vivs cannot be broken down. Not usually an issue, but can be. This is why I start out with tubs at first, just in case I need to move around. This is also why Animal Plastics is my go-to viv choice, since their cages can be broken down quite easily.

By saying "no tubs ever, only vivs" you putting a lot of unnecessary restrictions on people. Why should it matter what they're using to house their animals, if those animals needs are still being met? Just because someone gets a viv, doesn't necessarily mean that the snake now magically has all their needs being met.

A keeper that won't provide for their snakes isn't going to provide more care in a viv vs a tub, and a viv doesn't inherently mean better unless those extra steps are taken to ensure that viv also meets the animal's needs.


Now, my overall argument here is: you cannot base whether an enclosure is sufficient or not simply based off of the material. You must also look at the set up. A viv can be just as bad as a tub, with poor planning.
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Old 05-20-18, 05:42 AM   #55 (permalink)
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Re: I think I'm done.

Aaaaand I think the OP has permanently stepped back, just like Homer Simpson in the bush meme, fun to read through though.
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Old 05-20-18, 10:30 AM   #56 (permalink)
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Re: I think I'm done.

All anybody has to do is checkout keepers (their set up's) who have "produced" a lot of the species you're keeping (most species will not produce if their habitat isn't with-in what the range of what they "need").

If it's working for those guys and they have productive collections, it will work for you.

D
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Old 05-20-18, 10:41 AM   #57 (permalink)
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Re: I think I'm done.

For example
the OP question was in regards to a Rainbow Boa. In this instance it would be best to ask the question to this keeper....

Rainbows-R-Us Reptiles

Dave has produced more Rainbows than most anybody in the US.

Go to his site and follow what he says and does. You do that and you'll be fine.

D
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Old 05-20-18, 03:44 PM   #58 (permalink)
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Re: I think I'm done.

Hi, OP here. This thread became a tanks vs tubs vs custom discussion to which I had nothing to add so that's why I haven't commented on it again.
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Last edited by phenyx; 05-20-18 at 03:55 PM..
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Old 05-20-18, 03:46 PM   #59 (permalink)
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Re: I think I'm done.

Sorry I didn’t answer earlier, had a busy week…

@ bigsnakegirl785, I think we are going around in circles. I said I would not understand “why anyone would like to keep his/her reptiles in a tub or a rack for an extended period of time” and explained my reasoning behind this statement. I also said, that form a perspective of providing enrichment for your reptile there are better solutions than tubs / racks, that’s why I called them “suboptimal” solutions for keeping reptiles.

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Originally Posted by bigsnakegirl785 View Post
Now, my overall argument here is: you cannot base whether an enclosure is sufficient or not simply based off of the material. You must also look at the set up. A viv can be just as bad as a tub, with poor planning.
No disagreement here. My reasoning was never about the material and I never said your husbandry is OK as soon as you keep your reptile in a terrarium or vivarium. Of course all other aspects of your husbandry have to match the needs of your animal, just a nice enclosure is certainly not enough. If you use a dedicated terrarium you will not need to make so many compromises or modifications, since the necessary infrastructure is already in place.

I don’t know about the availability of enclosures in the US, here in Germany where I live I have two department stores similar to your “Petco” or “petsmart” within 15 to 20 minutes drive where I could get an enclosure form small to medium size (let’s say from 30 x 30 x 30 cm to 120 x 60 x 80 cm) right out of the shelf, even if it would be sold out it would be in stock again within two days.

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Originally Posted by Aztec4mia View Post
Aaaaand I think the OP has permanently stepped back, just like Homer Simpson in the bush meme, fun to read through though.
Oh, we didn’t chase him away right now, I saw him posting in another thread just a few days ago…

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Originally Posted by Derek Roddy View Post
All anybody has to do is checkout keepers (their set up's) who have "produced" a lot of the species you're keeping (most species will not produce if their habitat isn't with-in what the range of what they "need").

If it's working for those guys and they have productive collections, it will work for you.
That’s the big question, isn’t it?? Is “what they need” or as EL Ziggy said “eating, shedding, pooping, mating” all we want to provide? Just enough for them to survive and reproduce? Is the way “Rainbows-R-us Reptiles” is keeping their snakes (in racks as far as you can see on their homepage) how you really want to keep your snake at home?

I certainly wouldn’t want to keep any of my snakes that way, without any light, head space, climbing opportunities, UV light or in short, any kind of enrichment.

I would really like to invite you all to join the facebook group “Advancing Herpetological Husbandry”. Read some of the latest posts and some of the (scientific and peer reviewed) papers about enrichment, then come back and tell me if you still want to continue to provide “just enough” for your reptiles!
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Old 05-21-18, 06:38 AM   #60 (permalink)
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Re: I think I'm done.

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Originally Posted by Roman View Post
That’s the big question, isn’t it?? Is “what they need” or as EL Ziggy said “eating, shedding, pooping, mating” all we want to provide? Just enough for them to survive and reproduce? Is the way “Rainbows-R-us Reptiles” is keeping their snakes (in racks as far as you can see on their homepage) how you really want to keep your snake at home?
Yes that IS the big question. What they need and what YOU need are 2 different things.

If you would have actually taken the time to go through his website, you might learn a thing or 2.

All of Daves adults are in terrestrial cages.

None of his adults are in tubs but, do you know why his younger animals are in tubs?
Did you take the time to read his care sheets or to contact him about the species and why he dos what he does?
No you didn't because if you did, you would have learned that over his 45 years of working with these animals that younger animals stress very hard in open (big) environments. So in turn....they DO NOT thrive well in the environment YOU say they need as young animals.
They prefer tight areas and often what we would say is "uncomfortable".

So there is a reason that a veteran keeper might make the discussions they do. Because that what the animals tell them they need,

When you work with a species for that amount of time, you learn what makes them tick and all the species are slightly different in habits and behaviors.

It's best to learn from keepers who have productive success with the species you're trying to keep.

Anybody else opinion on the matter is moot.

D
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