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Old 09-08-17, 10:19 AM   #1 (permalink)
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What's the deal with scaleless snakes?

I'm not a big morph guy but I can appreciate a few, especially those that originated in the wild and not from rampant inbreeding.

What the heck is the interest in these scaleless snakes? They look disabled/deformed if that makes any sense.

Do they have any difficulty in living that way?

Thanks for the answers.
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Old 09-08-17, 10:23 AM   #2 (permalink)
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Re: What's the deal with scaleless snakes?

There were a few other discussions in other threads about this...this is one:

Do you like scaleless snakes?

Just go to the search function and query "scaleless" to see just how many times this has been touched upon.
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Old 09-08-17, 10:43 AM   #3 (permalink)
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Re: What's the deal with scaleless snakes?

I have a friend with scaleless corns. Not gonna lie, they are pretty neat.
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Old 09-08-17, 11:06 AM   #4 (permalink)
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Re: What's the deal with scaleless snakes?

one word...fugly!

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Originally Posted by Aaron_S View Post
I have a friend with scaleless corns. Not gonna lie, they are pretty neat.
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Old 09-08-17, 11:32 AM   #5 (permalink)
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Re: What's the deal with scaleless snakes?

Don't like them personally. It feels like what we did to dogs is being applied to snakes, eventually we will create separate "races" of snakes. We take the deformities arised from excessive inbreeding and plain old genetic accidents and start purifying them. We already have morphs with significant problems caused by humans and their curious passion to create something different.
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Old 09-08-17, 12:07 PM   #6 (permalink)
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Re: What's the deal with scaleless snakes?

And don't forget eyeless snakes are now a thing of some commercial value. Skinless frogs also (of course they are not entirely skinless but appear to be missing the outer layer).

To me breeding intentional deformities is wrong on a number of levels and people clearly don't know when to stop.
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Old 09-08-17, 12:48 PM   #7 (permalink)
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Re: What's the deal with scaleless snakes?

Yea I saw those eyeless snakes... pathetic that there is actually a market for them to start with. But whatever that particular breeder does, I hope he has a meeting with the karmabus one fine day.
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Old 09-08-17, 01:57 PM   #8 (permalink)
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Re: What's the deal with scaleless snakes?

Just throwing this out there, but scaleless snakes HAVE actually been found in the wild. One guy on this very forum found a juvie (not a baby) scaleless garter snake in the woods.

I personally appreciate the consideration taken to hybrid and mutate genetics as it is another way to learn about the world we live in. Curiosity isn't a bad thing. What's bad is when it affects the animal in a negative way. Like English bull dogs and their problems...those are BAD. It affects their every day life in a painful uncomfortable way that leads to ridiculously short life spans.

That being said, research has shown that the lack of scales on snakes does not show any negative affects. They have looked into such things as moisture retention, UV exposure, mobility, ect and have found that the animal is not impacted by any of those things (and more) by the lacking of their scales.

No, I do not have medical journals on file to share regarding this research, but I am sure you can find the same information in Google it talking to the people who actually breed these animals.

That all said, I rather like the feel of the scaleless snakes as I am a tactile person and appreciate the different feel and textures if different animals.
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Old 09-08-17, 11:23 PM   #9 (permalink)
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Re: What's the deal with scaleless snakes?

Quote:
Originally Posted by dannybgoode View Post
And don't forget eyeless snakes are now a thing of some commercial value. Skinless frogs also (of course they are not entirely skinless but appear to be missing the outer layer).

To me breeding intentional deformities is wrong on a number of levels and people clearly don't know when to stop.
There's a market for eyeless snakes and "skinless" frogs?!

What is wrong with people? That's just sick.
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Old 09-09-17, 01:45 AM   #10 (permalink)
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Re: What's the deal with scaleless snakes?

@mink - breeders, who have a strong financial interest in moving on these abominations, would be the very last people on earth I'd ask to justify their creating these animals. If there's a scientific paper on the subject I'm all ears. Breeder anecdotes are out.

Snakes have been around for 100,000's, even millions of years. There are thousands of snake species/sub species covering just about every land and sea mass on earth.

If being scaleless was a 'desirable' genetic trait then it is almost certain that a scaleless species - at least one species - would have evolved by now.

There are very very few adult scaleless snakes ever found and this alone suggests that they do not do well in the wild - the fact the garter was a juvenile is telling and it's very unlikely it would have survived into adulthood.

@serpentine - a certain breeder with the initials BB has started touting them.
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Old 09-09-17, 02:37 AM   #11 (permalink)
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Re: What's the deal with scaleless snakes?

Quote:
Originally Posted by dannybgoode View Post
@serpentine - a certain breeder with the initials BB has started touting them.
Sigh. I should have known.

Just because you can doesn't mean you should.
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Old 09-09-17, 03:07 AM   #12 (permalink)
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Re: What's the deal with scaleless snakes?

I don't get it at all. Why would any reptile enthusiast want a scaleless animal? Apart from the ethical (or rather unethical) side of it, aren't the scales ones of the main attractions to our cold-blooded companions?
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Old 09-09-17, 09:25 AM   #13 (permalink)
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Re: What's the deal with scaleless snakes?

I don't like the way scaleless snakes look, a bit too phallic for my taste. There are plenty of people who do and more power to them. I think we need to realize there is a very distinct difference between wild animals and those we keep in captivity. In most cases the two should not mix for many reasons. I agree that we should not breed for genes that negatively effect an animal, but as mink pointed out that may not be the case for scaleless animals.

As for eyeless snakes, I totally get the fascination. By all accounts they act as normal snakes, at least in ball pythons. This is due to the fact that they can make up for true vision via their heat pits. I think eyeless snakes just display how incredible this ability is. I would love to have one in my collection, but I do not think people should breed for this trait. To my knowledge there is not anyone who is, but these animals just pop up randomly. I see no issue with finding these very slightly disabled animals homes, and certainly don't think they should be culled.
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Old 09-09-17, 05:26 PM   #14 (permalink)
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Re: What's the deal with scaleless snakes?

That may be your opinion, but I strongly disagree to do selective breeding for deformities and other negative traits regardless if there is market for it. Not just specific to reptiles, but any animal. It can't possibly lead to anything good, and you're not making 'Happy animals' by selectively breeding them for these traits. They deserve a lot better than that.

Also, heatpits do not make up for true vision. That's similar as saying that hearing makes up for true vision in humans. They can detect something that is hotter or colder than the things around it, that's it basically.
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Old 09-09-17, 05:26 PM   #15 (permalink)
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Re: What's the deal with scaleless snakes?

While I'd never own one scaleless snakes are not only the result of strict inbreeding and many in more specific colubrid groups post them in any typical enclosure designs with no special precautions. Things like susceptibility to parasites and external health problems has been discussed occasionally, there was a thread on mites in the pituophis group and one on corns overall in the general colubrid group in the past month, and those who have them say it's been no more of a care issue than their scaled snakes. About all that comes up is whether some are hybrids and not being marketed truly as such when it matters to some people.

The fact they don't make a stable population in the wild is no different than the many morph colors that don't make a population in the wild and heck even endangered species since they can no longer meet the requirements to survive even if they once did. Should we stop keeping everything that's natural food source has become too scarce or no longer has enough suitable land to reproduce on because like morphs they can't make a wild population anymore? Plus many of the traits that create benefits of buying cb individuals over wc make them unable to survive back in the wild again anyway so it's not really a good argument for anything. They aren't in the wild with those requirements of predation and finding suitable food and surroundings so I care about their ability to live normal in captivity only. You can inbreed any typical wild looking snakes with normal scales into health issues too. You can do it with anything. Whether someone inbreeds to the point of problems or not is the breeder not the morph. It just tends to happen more with morphs since people will still pay for unique even if it takes extreme measures to keep healthy or will always live a shorter lifespan. One reason in other species I prefer performance/working line animals and don't show anything that is only based on appearances. If they can't do their job they aren't worth more to people for some unique trait so people won't breed them unless they think they can eliminate the problems. Sometimes they will keep a new breed or type under strict control for decades before allowing other breeders and then the general public access to make sure they have created a stable population of healthy individuals again with the new trait. Some responsibly created dog breeds were kept hush for 50 years and some lines of performance horses with a recessive issue require genetic testing to be released with the papers or you know someone is hiding something to try to get their money despite a positive result. It can be done to the benefit of the animal or not no matter what it is. It doesn't mean they are all that way. Unfortunately much of it is only kept in check by the buyers and whether there is still a market for it or selling something with a genetic problem regardless of its' other traits ruins your reputation instead.
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