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Old 08-07-17, 02:23 PM   #121 (permalink)
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Re: Keeping snakes without a hotspot

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Originally Posted by TRD View Post
Type the right name: Frances M Baines

And it's not on reptiles, it on lighting requirements for reptiles.
Who the heck is "Francis Cosqueiri" then? Lol.
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Old 08-07-17, 03:19 PM   #122 (permalink)
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Re: Keeping snakes without a hotspot

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Originally Posted by dannybgoode View Post
So essentially you're advising people it's fine to deny a snake the ability to perform one of its fundamental behaviours with no scientific understanding of the importance of that behaviour and with no research or data to back up or prove what this magic temperature is or even be able tell me what it is?

You have no proof either that different species are all ok at the same temperature (and I can categorically say this is not the case).

But hey some snakes haven't died yet and some have even bred so it must be ok. The default position of people who follow breeder methodology (and I am not making just on here but in the hobby in general) is to demand papers from those advocating an alternate position.

As I say I have 6 or so papers on the subject, one of which does indeed compare snakes being allowed thermoregulate against those kept at a single temperature.

I am simply asking for the same. What scientific proof do you have that your method is not harmful - what proof do you have that denying a fundamental behaviour is ok?
First off, I'm not advising anyone to do anything. If something is working for them then why would they change it?

I also don't like the implication that I don't understand that some snakes bask in the wild or why they do it.

I've said that the temperature is in the 80 degrees F +/- a degree or two.

Some snakes? There are probably upwards of tens of thousands of snakes being kept in this manner with no ill effects. So many snakes have been kept this way and many different species.

You say you have 6 papers on the subject, you haven't posted any of them. This is you saying "I have a source and its a better source than yours just because I said so." There aren't many papers on the subject because very few people in the scientific community care about captive husbandry. Who would I go to in order to gain funding for such a long term and potentially costly study? Reptile care product companies wouldn't fund such a study at the risk of losing customers for their heating products and the scientific community probably just doesn't care. I only have my experiences with this method and the evidence that others have produced who do something similar.

I won't be encouraged to do something that adds an unnecessary variable to my enclosures that isn't offering any measurable benefit but has the risk to cause issues. If my snakes were listless or experiencing any kind of issues I would change it immediately but that's just flat out not the case. This method works as well as any other method does when done correctly for the same reason those methods work.

In regards to taking away their behaviors, I don't feel as if I'm stopping my snake from exploring it's enclosure, the many tunnels through the substrate prove that they remain as active as ever.

Anyways I've given my reasoning behind why I do what I do already, have a good evening.
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Old 08-07-17, 05:01 PM   #123 (permalink)
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Re: Keeping snakes without a hotspot

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Originally Posted by jjhill001 View Post
Who the heck is "Francis Cosqueiri" then? Lol.
Just a very knowledgeable dude from the UK that has brought many colubrid snakes into Europe back in the days and is still working on establishing new species in captivity. He keeps quite a lot of snakes people don't usually keep in very nice setups and maintains a whole bunch of articles related to husbandry. Nice guy as well. And no, you won't find him all over internet
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Old 08-08-17, 08:30 AM   #124 (permalink)
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Re: Keeping snakes without a hotspot

Quote:
Originally Posted by dannybgoode View Post
So essentially you're advising people it's fine to deny a snake the ability to perform one of its fundamental behaviours with no scientific understanding of the importance of that behaviour and with no research or data to back up or prove what this magic temperature is or even be able tell me what it is?

You have no proof either that different species are all ok at the same temperature (and I can categorically say this is not the case).

But hey some snakes haven't died yet and some have even bred so it must be ok. The default position of people who follow breeder methodology (and I am not making just on here but in the hobby in general) is to demand papers from those advocating an alternate position.

As I say I have 6 or so papers on the subject, one of which does indeed compare snakes being allowed thermoregulate against those kept at a single temperature.

I am simply asking for the same. What scientific proof do you have that your method is not harmful - what proof do you have that denying a fundamental behaviour is ok?
I definitely think she has merit and I appreciate you posting her words here for us. I personally prefer the gradient because I don't like the idea of the ideal temp. I think it takes more work, a more dedicated room and if a rack isn't full of snakes I can just pull the plug on the heat tape whereas with the room I have to keep the heat constant.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jjhill001 View Post
First off, I'm not advising anyone to do anything. If something is working for them then why would they change it?

I also don't like the implication that I don't understand that some snakes bask in the wild or why they do it.

I've said that the temperature is in the 80 degrees F +/- a degree or two.

Some snakes? There are probably upwards of tens of thousands of snakes being kept in this manner with no ill effects. So many snakes have been kept this way and many different species.

You say you have 6 papers on the subject, you haven't posted any of them. This is you saying "I have a source and its a better source than yours just because I said so." There aren't many papers on the subject because very few people in the scientific community care about captive husbandry. Who would I go to in order to gain funding for such a long term and potentially costly study? Reptile care product companies wouldn't fund such a study at the risk of losing customers for their heating products and the scientific community probably just doesn't care. I only have my experiences with this method and the evidence that others have produced who do something similar.

I won't be encouraged to do something that adds an unnecessary variable to my enclosures that isn't offering any measurable benefit but has the risk to cause issues. If my snakes were listless or experiencing any kind of issues I would change it immediately but that's just flat out not the case. This method works as well as any other method does when done correctly for the same reason those methods work.

In regards to taking away their behaviors, I don't feel as if I'm stopping my snake from exploring it's enclosure, the many tunnels through the substrate prove that they remain as active as ever.

Anyways I've given my reasoning behind why I do what I do already, have a good evening.
Now, if you haven't seen it, Danny mentioned she's a world renowned vet. She's a "for profit" person so she could fund her own studies. However, someone who has a business in some respect has an agenda for their own gain in my opinion but it doesn't mean we can't dig further into the conversation because she could easily be right and her papers, when they're posted, could be very insightful.
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Old 08-08-17, 02:44 PM   #125 (permalink)
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Re: Keeping snakes without a hotspot

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Originally Posted by Aaron_S View Post
Now, if you haven't seen it, Danny mentioned she's a world renowned vet. She's a "for profit" person so she could fund her own studies. However, someone who has a business in some respect has an agenda for their own gain in my opinion but it doesn't mean we can't dig further into the conversation because she could easily be right and her papers, when they're posted, could be very insightful.
I misread where he said Fran Baines and only saw the Francis Cosqueiri name, so that's my bad. I get on here pretty late some times and the similarity of the first name must have done it.

Terry Phillip is a world renowned snake keeper and zoo curator. Looking at how much he's been involved in conservation, documentaries and research he's just as much of an authority as anyone else who's referenced in regards to snake care as far as I'm concerned.

"Because of my experience and reputation among the worldwide venomous community, I also train both private and professional venomous snake keepers on handling techniques, captive management, and husbandry protocol - I have had the opportunity to train keepers and curators from San Diego, the St. Louis, Henry Doorly Zoo in Omaha, the Denver Zoo, the zoos in Dallas and Ft. Worth, the Woodland Park Zoo in Seattle, Miami MetroZoo, and the Tampa Zoo."

The link to his site is below included in his about me section.

About Me | Black Hills Pythons | Rapid City, South Dakota

The point I'm trying to make is that I'm not just pulling stuff out of my butt to defend the way I'm doing things. The same way that Danny isn't pulling anything out of his butt. I don't feel he's wrong however I don't think that I am either. Which goes back to my statement about there being more than one way to take care of snakes.
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