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Old 08-24-16, 07:31 AM   #16 (permalink)
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Re: Baby snake help

It's a recommendation! The op and anyone else can take it or leave it. It's much easier to place the l.b. acidophilus into drinking water for inexperienced keepers. Studies? No. It's pretty common knowledge if the animal regurged he's lost some of the essential "good bacteria" in his gut. Nutri bac, bene bac, and the other brand names for l.b. acidophilus are recommended. Will he survive without it , sure. Will he feel better quicker, absolutely. Regurges are partially digested foodstuffs that are accompanied by the reptiles acidic enzymes and can irritate the upper gi tract and esophagus. L.b.acidophilus aids in replacing good bacteria and enzymatic properties.
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Old 08-24-16, 07:39 AM   #17 (permalink)
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Re: Baby snake help

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1. Nothing is required. I don't know who has begun saying these drops are required for a regurge.

2. How do you know the snakes will drink from the water with the drops in them? It goes like this. Someone puts drops in the water, the snake eats fine the next go around. The person then proclaims "WOW these drops did it!" When in actuality the snake just handled it all on it's own and never drank.



Do you have a study since you've specifically outlined reptiles? As well these animals aren't or have not been on antibiotics so why would you be using the product?
I get the idea I'm just having a hard time changing my opinion on how to handle a regurge without solid facts.
Plenty of times people in the reptile world jump on something like this and proclaim it as amaze balls but it's really not.
I agree with all of this. With young hatchlings such as in this case, less is certainly more.
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Old 08-24-16, 07:44 AM   #18 (permalink)
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Re: Baby snake help

It's also the combination of the increased temps and the l.b.acidophilus as well as feeding a smaller prey item next time that will decrease the chances of a repeat episode.
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Old 08-24-16, 07:50 AM   #19 (permalink)
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Re: Baby snake help

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I agree with all of this. With young hatchlings such as in this case, less is certainly more.
Andy, and this is fine. It's a simple educated recommendation for the op to consider. His hatchlings are dying and it's just a recommendation. I am not trying to win a argument or disagreement. Nor am I pushing what I would do on someone else. A simple request for the op to consider. Intervention was begun with the increased temps and that is a good place to start.
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Old 08-24-16, 07:57 AM   #20 (permalink)
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Re: Baby snake help

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Andy, and this is fine. It's a simple educated recommendation for the op to consider. His hatchlings are dying and it's just a recommendation. I am not trying to win a argument or disagreement. Nor am I pushing what I would do on someone else. A simple request for the op to consider. Intervention was begun with the increased temps and that is a good place to start.
All good, Albert. Having both sides present their thoughts certainly doesn't cause harm.
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Old 08-24-16, 09:59 AM   #21 (permalink)
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Re: Baby snake help

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It's also the combination of the increased temps and the l.b.acidophilus as well as feeding a smaller prey item next time that will decrease the chances of a repeat episode.
How do you know the acidophilus has any effect? How do you know it isn't just the increased Temps doing all the work?
This is frustrating and a pet peeve of mine. It isn't you specifically Albert, you simply presented the case to talk about.

This is rampant in the hobby. This type of "education". So many myths from decades ago were formed from this type of thinking. It simply means keepers are too arrogant and too stupid to actually figure something out.

Example, people have spoke about impaction for decades with lizards and substrate. It isn't a real CAUSE of death. It's a symptom of an underlying issue. The lizard dies and in animal death throes they usually open their mouth and take piles of dirt in. The keeper sees the dead animal and instead of figuring out what's actually wrong or admitting they did a shoddy keeping job they point to the "impaction". Taking all guilt away from them and then worst of all, passing around this information along with their "perfect" husbandry skills causing more animal deaths.

People need to bring real facts, studies to back up their claims. Bring proof. In this case have snakes regurging but don't change prey size or Temps or anything else and show me the proof. There's been decades of snakes recovering from a resurgence just fine with additives so you need to show a better way of doing it with undeniable truth. I'm not above changing my ways but I won't change them on a whim.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Albert Clark View Post
Andy, and this is fine. It's a simple educated recommendation for the op to consider. His hatchlings are dying and it's just a recommendation. I am not trying to win a argument or disagreement. Nor am I pushing what I would do on someone else. A simple request for the op to consider. Intervention was begun with the increased temps and that is a good place to start.
I will question you on the "educated recommendation". You haven't provided any education on the effects with reptiles. Specifically snake regurgitation.
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Old 08-24-16, 11:40 AM   #22 (permalink)
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Re: Baby snake help

Well actually it's really not that important Aaron. Like I said previously it's a recommendation. To avoid derailing the op request for help and someone else with another suggestion to the regurges and death of the op hatchlings. I will agree to disagree. As far as the "educated recommendation" that is my 30 years in the emergency medical field, 25 years of experience with keeping, breeding, and dealing with reptiles. Colubrids and pythons. Keepers rarely are arrogant and or stupid. They may just be honestly ignorant and not well read. And I don't think they are neither stupid as you put it. They are looking for answers and help.
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Old 08-24-16, 12:01 PM   #23 (permalink)
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Re: Baby snake help

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Originally Posted by Albert Clark View Post
Well actually it's really not that important Aaron. Like I said previously it's a recommendation. To avoid derailing the op request for help and someone else with another suggestion to the regurges and death of the op hatchlings. I will agree to disagree. As far as the "educated recommendation" that is my 30 years in the emergency medical field, 25 years of experience with keeping, breeding, and dealing with reptiles. Colubrids and pythons. Keepers rarely are arrogant and or stupid. They may just be honestly ignorant and not well read. And I don't think they are neither stupid as you put it. They are looking for answers and help.
Negative. Arrogance is huge in this industry.

Except me, it's never arrogance if you're better than the rest of the world at something. (I may or may not be kidding)

I will agree to disagree except you had said it was REQUIRED to use this. Not a simple recommendation. You stated it as fact and as soon as you were challenged for actual information to back up the claim you decided to back down and "agree to disagree". Sorry Albert but your recommendation holds no water with me. (OP and anyone else reading can make up their own minds and I appreciate you adding something to the conversation/thread that otherwise wouldn't be here.)

Except me, it's never arrogance if you're better than the rest of the world at something.
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Old 08-24-16, 12:16 PM   #24 (permalink)
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Re: Baby snake help

Guess it's all perspective. OP. Any updates on the dilemma with the hatchlings?
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Old 08-24-16, 12:37 PM   #25 (permalink)
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Re: Baby snake help

Pet Authoity brand L.b.acidophilus.
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Old 08-24-16, 12:38 PM   #26 (permalink)
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Re: Baby snake help

Dosage and ingredients
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Old 08-24-16, 12:40 PM   #27 (permalink)
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Re: Baby snake help

Dosage and instillation options.
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Old 08-25-16, 04:00 PM   #28 (permalink)
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Re: Baby snake help

Shouldn't believe everything on a label. Did you know that "organic" products only need a small percentage of organic ingredients to be considered "organic" by the FDA? Labels aren't studies as asked for to back up the claims of actually being helpful. That could be water sold as some miracle product.

Also, that doesn't back up any claims made previously in the thread.
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Old 08-26-16, 12:44 AM   #29 (permalink)
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Re: Baby snake help

I don't know about the US bit here in the uk some of the fertilisers and pesticides organic farmers are allowed to use are really quite nasty but because they are 'natural' they're ok for organic use.

In fact some of the synthesised compounds are actually better.

Anyway back on topic I've read some of the studies and trials of the human equivalent for such things and they've been shown to be pretty ineffective in replacing gut flora. Note I have more than a passing interest in this area as I don't have a bowel and even the mildest antibiotics knocks my guts right out so am always looking for something that will help.

I'd be interested in seeing some scientific trials of probiotics in reptiles.
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Old 08-26-16, 07:30 AM   #30 (permalink)
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Re: Baby snake help

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I don't know about the US bit here in the uk some of the fertilisers and pesticides organic farmers are allowed to use are really quite nasty but because they are 'natural' they're ok for organic use.

In fact some of the synthesised compounds are actually better.

Anyway back on topic I've read some of the studies and trials of the human equivalent for such things and they've been shown to be pretty ineffective in replacing gut flora. Note I have more than a passing interest in this area as I don't have a bowel and even the mildest antibiotics knocks my guts right out so am always looking for something that will help.

I'd be interested in seeing some scientific trials of probiotics in reptiles.
Thanks for weighing in db. Reptile magazine has a article favorably discussing the use of l.b.acidophilus and I am looking for it. Scientific trials I just don't know about. I am interested in hearing from the op and his experience with the product.
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