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Old 03-21-18, 01:41 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Feeding regimen for all constrictors!! A MUST read and would love some input+discuss

*sorry about typos and errors my keyboard is jammed up*

OK in posts before I have spoke about feeding my Suriname, whats over feedings, whats too little??? Well I have wrote a kind of thesis on the mathematics behind feeding all boids....I got most of my research from a really good book called "whats wrong with my snake?" Mostly this lie is how my formula began.... Large boids and most other snakes too in the wild have been scientifically proven on average to consume 4x their body weight in a year....in captivity an adult snake should consume about 2x its body weight per year due to th much much less activity if not in the wild...also not breeding.....this formula is for baby to adult pythons and boas it does not pertain to breeding or anything else that might factor in.

Ok so in this example I will use a Suriname red tailed boa. which I have a newborn now. Also know that I am just guessing or estimating these weights of prey and snakes ..its just the numbers im using sure they are not accurate I cannot predict what kind of size he will obtain...

So here it is......

first I wanna sy lets pretend you have a 12 ft 50 pounds retic.... 2x his weight a year is 100 pounds...devided by 12 months is about 8 pounds a month...4 pounds every 2 weeks.....OK so an adult 50 pound retic shuld get those meals ebery 2 weeks or month gowever you wanna feed......
\

Now back to our baby Suriname....so I have a male and he weighs 100 grams on the dot...since hes 28" and ony about 3 months old.....here it goes....just for the RED TAiL!!! ok so eoecting my male will be full grown adullt in 5 year and hit 6-8 ft.

so hes 28" so fro now until he is 4' he will get 1/3 every 2weeks....but i feed weeklys.....so he needs 1/3 of 100g which is 33 grams biweekly.... So I just fed him a 20 gram adult mouse...in another week helll get a 15g hopper I have so thats 35 grams ...its ok to be a little overbut not under....

now hes 4' and estimate of a pounds 452 grams..... so now hes goes to 1/4 biweekly....so about 110 grams bi weejky...remmember its all estimates not doing exact math here. So a 4; suriname is probably a year old so it would be ok to give him a small-medium rat that weighs 110 grams or give a weanling at 60 grams weekly...or here the tough part.....in a month he need 220g so at this size a large 220 g rat might be too big...but you could divide 210 by 3 and get about 70g so if you wnted to feed less often just give a small 70g rat every 10 days

ok now 5',,,probably close to 2 years due to slower growth than bci...so now 1/5 biweekly....lets say he weighs 3 pounds now.....

260 grams is about 1/5 of 3 pounds or 1356 grams....so a medium- large rat thats is close as possible to 260 grams bi weekly is perfect....and gain you can adjust...if you wanna go to monthy give him a jumbo rat 520 grams...

Now in this case a male Suriname will slow groth alot around 6 feet...most of them...I would love mine to get to at least 7- 8 ft but genetic......

Anyway once they are like 75% of their full growth you wanna lower the food intake....so at 6' lets say he weighs 7 pounds.... I would go to 1/7 every 2 weeks....so he gets a 1 pound rabbit evry 2 weeks... or a 2 pounder if he can take it once a month....sticking with rats?? give a 250 gram raat weekly or a jumbo bi weeklu....

So finally my boa is lets say 5 years old and he reached 7'!! whch is great and pretty much a full grown adult boa. SO adult of all BOIDS are 10% every 2 weeks....which goes back to rqual the 2x body weight per year....so my 7' suriname is 15 pounds lets say...Im sure they weigh much more than that but I have only had bci and mostly retics and burms in the past. So I feed a 3 pound rabbit monhtly or 1.5lb biweekly..

NOw im gonna do th sme rhing but for a ball python....you ned to adjust when to change the ratios by the type and gender of snake and adult size...

So our female ball python , we want her to get 4-5 ft.....and about 900grams...again estimate numbers...

*newborn (12-15")(60grams) 1/3 bi weeklys = 20g biweekly/ 10 g a week so a fuzzy/hopper weekly or 5 days

* after a year (30-36")(250 grams) 1/4 bi weekly...week=20grams adult mouse/rat pup./bi weekly 60 grams / small rat...10 days?? 60x2=120 grams a mont divide by 3 is 40 grams...every 10 dys..

*2 years (3-4 ft) (600 grams) - 1/5= 120g bi weekly, medium rat...../ weekly 60 grams, small rat

*once the ball ypthon is 4 ft, almsot ful grown go to 1/7.5....so our 4 ft ball python weights 900 grams....so 1/7.5 is about round up to 70 grams bi weekly...so just a smlal rat every 2 weeks....now IM wrong with the estimate wights cuz im sure a large 4 ft ball python rats more than that so you need to do your own forumula im just htrowing in random numbers sok.......

*finally our ball python is 3-4 years old...shes full frown she almost made it to 5' and she weighs 4 pounds..... so now that shes an adult she gets 10% every other week....so we can feed her a 180 graam rat bi weekly....or 90 grams weekly...or an adult can eta monthly and 360 grams so an adult large rat a month...a

*agin this is for constrictors that are not breeding and not sick and have optimal temps and humdiity and are thriving....This formula has got a thumbs up from bob clak, even told me I should right a small book or care sheet...but that in the future... I have used this with all my retic and burms and boas since i was 20 when I finally figurd it out....At 16 I got my first burm and I fed him well but definately overfed by far!!! took me a while to come up with a mathematical solution.....So if your not about numbers and math...aybe its not for you...but I love it!!! it gives me peice of mind that my animal is doing well, fed well ad heaalthy!!!\\


PLEASE i would love everyone's input and advice or your own feeding regimens, no arguments here just a friendly debate and feedback...thanks gys!!!. heres more better pics of my handsome little guy and his new setup..... I justy ordered a theromatsta of amazon to use for the het pad...sometimes inside the cave on the hot side on the left it gets up to 110 so I never used a thermostat before but hopefully that will help it not to go over 90-95...*****QUICK ?????, is it bad for the heat pad or lamps to be turned on and off all the time by the thermostat????, thanks so much guys! love this forum and to be able to share my boa with you all and to see all of your...like a boa family here
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Old 03-21-18, 01:45 PM   #2 (permalink)
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Re: Feeding regimen for all constrictors!! A MUST read and would love some input+disc

some more pics!!!
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Old 03-21-18, 01:54 PM   #3 (permalink)
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Re: Feeding regimen for all constrictors!! A MUST read and would love some input+disc

Too convoluted. Really needs grammar fixed to be deciphered. Would suggest making your ideas clearer before writing your care sheet.

Last edited by MichaelRobinson; 03-21-18 at 02:04 PM..
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Old 03-21-18, 02:06 PM   #4 (permalink)
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Re: Feeding regimen for all constrictors!! A MUST read and would love some input+disc

Way too much math.
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Old 03-21-18, 02:14 PM   #5 (permalink)
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Re: Feeding regimen for all constrictors!! A MUST read and would love some input+disc

hmmm . Think I mentioned that Im usisng a rough keyboard when I began so lets not go by thatt...and if you cannot do the basic math required then this isnt for you. But if we relly care for our snakes, then would it really hurt to read this over and compare it to you own and discuss and compare?

To many owners just thrown in mice every week even to a 6 foot burm!! thats why so mny kids and ignorant people purchace these poor baby snakes then kil them by over or under feeding and complete neglect.....so this info is great for new owners and is a great guidline for all snakes young and old big and small!
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Old 03-21-18, 03:03 PM   #6 (permalink)
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Re: Feeding regimen for all constrictors!! A MUST read and would love some input+disc

Quote:
Originally Posted by BallBuster7653 View Post
...and if you cannot do the basic math required then this isnt for you.
Excuse me, your condescension is not appreciated. I may suffer from dyscalculia (the math version of dyslexia) and breathtaking math anxiety, but I can do "basic math" just fine. X% of body weight at any given time is basic math. What you've presented, however, is an overly complex, convoluted, multistage, word-problem-from-hell that's giving me SAT flashbacks.

It's great that you did a thesis on this. You obviously put a lot of time and research into it. But what you've presented is way too complex and convoluted for practical use. Nobody has time to do all that formulaic math before every single feeding. It would take me half a day to do your calculations never mind the days and anxiety meds it would take me just to understand your system.

You wanted feedback. That is my feedback. Responsible snake owners come at ALL degrees of math competancy. Just because I can't understand your convoluted mess of a post doesn't mean I shouldn't own snakes.
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Last edited by phenyx; 03-21-18 at 03:33 PM..
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Old 03-21-18, 03:57 PM   #7 (permalink)
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Re: Feeding regimen for all constrictors!! A MUST read and would love some input+disc

I would like to see your "scientifically proven to eat 4x their weight in a year" reference to an actual scientific paper. Can you please post the name and/or (pref.) doi of that paper please? If that line comes from that book you mention, there should be a reference mentioned in it.

You know, if a human would eat 4x it's weight in a year in food, a 80 kg male would eat 878 gram of food per day. And we are highly active warm blooded mammals who are highly inefficient in their dietary needs compared to reptiles. We waste a great deal of our energy obtained from our food (60-80%) on digestion and keeping our organs going on a daily basis, and put an additional 10-20% into heating our bodies.

Seeing that you suggest that a boa is just barely more efficient than a human, I highly doubt the correctness of this research you mention and I would like to see it for myself.

Last edited by TRD; 03-21-18 at 04:04 PM..
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Old 03-21-18, 04:04 PM   #8 (permalink)
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Re: Feeding regimen for all constrictors!! A MUST read and would love some input+disc

So I read through your care sheet but I can't seem to make much of it.
I think its mostly because you aren't very clear in this care sheet.
Most of the math is explained very poorly which causes a lot of confusion on why you are even doing certain calculations.
Also when talking about a snake having to eat twice its body weight per year you seem to contradict yourself by first saying its a lie and then making an example using the same formula.
I would seriously consider restructuring your care sheet to improve readability, since its very unclear at the moment.
also just a small tip, virtual keyboards exist. having a keyboard that is stuck shouldn't be an excuse for having words simply spelled wrong.
and grammar wise there are multiple applications or extensions that can help with that.
I am not the strongest grammar wise myself, yet it could really use improvement.
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Old 03-21-18, 04:07 PM   #9 (permalink)
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Re: Feeding regimen for all constrictors!! A MUST read and would love some input+disc

TRD, here he says its a lie himself yet he also makes an example using the same formula so I don't know if its a typo or he is contradicting himself.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BallBuster7653 View Post
Mostly this lie is how my formula began.... Large boids and most other snakes too in the wild have been scientifically proven on average to consume 4x their body weight in a year....in captivity an adult snake should consume about 2x its body weight per year due to th much much less activity if not in the wild...also not breeding.....this formula is for baby to adult pythons and boas it does not pertain to breeding or anything else that might factor in.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BallBuster7653 View Post
So here it is......

first I wanna sy lets pretend you have a 12 ft 50 pounds retic.... 2x his weight a year is 100 pounds...devided by 12 months is about 8 pounds a month...4 pounds every 2 weeks.....OK so an adult 50 pound retic shuld get those meals ebery 2 weeks or month gowever you wanna feed......
\

Last edited by LightHawk; 03-21-18 at 04:08 PM.. Reason: wanted to aim it to TRD but messed it up, oops
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Old 03-21-18, 04:18 PM   #10 (permalink)
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Re: Feeding regimen for all constrictors!! A MUST read and would love some input+disc

No, he mentioned that in captivity it is 2x, which is still crazy, so I want to see his references on which he based his thesis (which by lack of reference would be floored by any competent reviewer).

Also, was your thesis written for a degree in zoology or any other veterinarian education? Or was it an altogether different direction and you picked this as it was your interest? I could write a factually bullshit thesis on archaeology in Japanese, for a Japanese literature subject and still pass when my use of spelling and grammar is good.
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Old 03-21-18, 04:32 PM   #11 (permalink)
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Re: Feeding regimen for all constrictors!! A MUST read and would love some input+disc

Can floor his logic too...

Take a 4000 gr Ball python, with his logic in the wild it would eat 16 kg of food/year according to you.

A Ball python in the wild aestivates 3 months of the year underground due to high temperatures (this is also when they were collected, and hence the termite mount myth emerged).

So that leaves us with 9 months of activity.

Are we really suggesting here that a 4000 gr BALL PYTHON is eating on AVERAGE 818 gram per 14 days? Or a 2500 gr python is eating 511 gr per 14 days (that's a weaned rat or XL mouse every day in the wild)?!

Are we also suggesting that metabolism across snake taxa is the same, and always between 10-15% for adults? "and most other snakes too". Can you please list those "other snakes" and come with the supporting documents on those?

I'm all for good and well supported feeding regimen as most, if not all, snakes are massively overfed in captivity. But supply the foundation on which this is build, factual research data, differences between taxa and their metabolism, differences in prey item nutritional value (rodents, avian, reptilian, amphibian, etc prey - and hence different feeding frequencies and sizes), differences in behavior (aestivation, brumation, etc), and so on.

Just some losely and horribly substantiated post like this doesn't add any value, and doesn't come good to the hobby.

Last edited by TRD; 03-21-18 at 04:42 PM..
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Old 03-21-18, 06:00 PM   #12 (permalink)
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Re: Feeding regimen for all constrictors!! A MUST read and would love some input+disc

OK you guys are making it too difficult....TRD I mentioned alot of my research was from books especially "whats wrong with my snake" order in on amazon.....and I was not condescending anyone you made comments in grammar and math and I explained it in the beginning..

a 4000g ball python...an adult would need 360 g rat bi weekly 10 percent... forgot about in the wild and stuff I just said does not apply to breeding.....this isnt meant to be an argument....really simple...

all boids from birth 1/3 thei weight biweekly...its all based on bi weekly...then go to 1/4 then 1/5 then 1/7.5 then adults 1/10....

so each snakes different rates of growth and sizze varries when you switch to the next teir. SO.....

a male retic.....adult 12-16ft....

so for first 6 months maybe 1/3 then 1/4 then maybe by a year at 8 ft you do 1/5 and maybe switch to rabbits....do that until he reaches say 10ft then go to 1/7.5....then 1/10 when hes a few years old and at least 12-14 ft.... done deal....

ball python female.....

1/3- until shes like 2 ft.
1/4 until 3 ft
1/5 until 4 ft
then 1/7.5 until fully grown adult depends on each snake...then adults get 1/10 all biweekly..do the math to do monthly feeding s or weekly....its really that simple.... I have given examples and references as well as did several different snakes and comparisons. If you have specific questions about it or would like to discuss it, im here. But sorry I will not argue and also stated that you need to adjust for each different snake....breeding, sickness ect. I just read my post again and its perfectly understandable...if your not about math then its not for you.

if you read it and comprehend the formula you will see it works very well and I have many many snakes in the past to prove it all grown to adult hood. some breeding....I have used this formula for years, had beautiful snakes good weight, never missed or refused a feed and no problems. So I must be doing something right. So plz anything egtive to sya, dont say it...if you would like to give feedback thats welcome. thanks guys
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Old 03-21-18, 06:04 PM   #13 (permalink)
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Re: Feeding regimen for all constrictors!! A MUST read and would love some input+disc

and in the wild TRD a ball python would eat as much as possible in the 6 month of breeding season so yes its very possible that every 2 weeks a ball python is eating 600g prey bi weekly. im not sure about in the wild but thats not what this is about...its merely a standard guideline to help measure prey items against weight of the snake and knowing your feeding well.
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Old 03-21-18, 06:55 PM   #14 (permalink)
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Re: Feeding regimen for all constrictors!! A MUST read and would love some input+disc

Quote:
Originally Posted by BallBuster7653 View Post
all boids from birth 1/3 thei weight biweekly...
Let's do some basic math.

My baby BRB is 30 gms. 1/3 (~33.3%) of his body weight every two weeks = 10 gms every 14 days, 20 gms a month, or 5 gms every 7 days.

The most common feeding guidelines I've seen say an average of 13% every seven days is healthy and proper for baby snakes. 5 gms is ~16.7% of his body weight. (Never mind the fact that I'm still struggling to get the little jerk to eat 2 gm pinkies on the regular.)

My baby BP (since you originally presented this as a feeding regimen for ALL snakes) is about 5 months old and weighs 217 gms. 1/3 of her body weight every two weeks = 72 gms every 14 days, 144 gms a month or 36 gms every 7 days. 36 grams is the size of a weaned rat. She's 5 months old and 2 feet long and by your system I should be feeding her a 36 gm weaned rat every 7 days or a 72 gm small rat every 2 weeks.

Even as a rank tyro I know that is too much food for either baby.
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Old 03-22-18, 02:15 AM   #15 (permalink)
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Re: Feeding regimen for all constrictors!! A MUST read and would love some input+disc

A book is not science, a book is just that...
Science is peer reviewed. You mentioned scientifically proven...
Your whole though process is based on 'scientifically proven eating 4x their weight a year and 2x their weight in captivity'

So I'm curious about that science, not about that book.
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