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Old 05-14-03, 11:18 AM   #41 (permalink)
Join Date: Mar-2002
Posts: 5,936
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"Lets take everything from them"

I am not sure what you mean by this. You as well as everyone else around here keeps herps in a cage. Saying you feel better mentally because you aren't taking everything away is a little silly to me. They are living in a cage no matter how you look at it. If your views are so militant about keeping herps then why keep them captive in the first place? You can't have a natural world for a captive herp. Yes you can get close, but its not the wild. Its a home. People live in the home. Noises, etc. It can never be natural. Buying them alone took everything away. I agree give them the best home you can but I believe that means following what generations of snake keepers (same species as me) have proven to be sucessful methods to keeping and breeding healthy snakes. Your natural sun and huge cage method works great I am sure, but it doesn't work for everyone and it certainly doesn't work for every herp. I don't believe that means people who are sucessful in keeping that way can't say feeding live is bad. Feeding live is a mistake that can happen in a large or small cage.

They travel and seek shelte in small hides, not live there lives in them
Ball Pythons are NOT a travelling snake. This is obvious just by comparing their body and habits with a cornsnake. You'd be surprised how small a range most of them have. By forcing them to live in large cages you are forcing them to seek out correct temp gradients which is not always a good thing, not always. The fact that Ball Pythons are heathier/happier/better eaters when living in small safer cages has been shown by many many breeders, including many on this site. You saying their balls would do better in 80 gallon cages is simply not true. *Some* may, but even more will be too stressed out by the open space to freely move through the heat gradient, won't want to eat, etc. This has come up hundreds of times on this site alone.

Thrashng from side to side garters or bull snakes from side to side in 4' container looks a tad painful to me.. Hell, even the 200g. troughs appears painful. But hey, as long as noone feeds live. We all love a good bashing.
But is that not the point of having threadS? One thread for one discussion another for another discussion? This thread was about the dangers of feeding live, not the downside of small cages. I agree most snakes need more room but why would I bring up each thing I see as a husbandry fault in every thread I post in? I see your point but don't see why someone who keeps in rubbermaids shouldn't post about not feeding live.

I just don't understand what basis you have for saying those snakes kept in rubbermaids are less healthy than yours kept in these bedroom sized cages? A 200 gallon trough is more than enough for a happy small sized colubrid. I doubt you could actually tell me the differance in health between my colubrids or those kept in a 200 gallon trough. Mine have larger than average cages, and I DO AGREE that some peoples housing is gross.

I believe big boids are another story altogether. I also cannot believe some people keep them in 8 by 3 foot cages. But then again those people would argue that the snakes aren't using the room even when given the room. But I don't know much about large boids so I won't comment much on them.

I just keep small colubrids and I don't agree that my animals are being tortured by living in rubbermaids with flexwatt heating. I am not sure what type of heating you'd suggest for someone living in Canada that would be more natural. But if it was active UV bulbs I doubt I'd have very happy snakes for long. My iguanas cage is not even large enough to allow safe use of those. I did @ one time use a UVB stripe light for better viewing of two corns....I never did see a differance though. In fact one of them is a total shrimp/slow grower and the other passed away. Of course this has nothing to do with the bulb, but it doesn't seem to have helped out as much as you seem to think it would. It made no differance what so ever. And if you ask how I know, then I'd ask how you know it does.

I just want to add (sorry novel) that you have good points...I just don't understand why you lump everyone who uses those methods together when the facts point that some species do better in those enclosures.

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